Help please

[MaryA]

Just so that you know I've seen this message as I'll do a little look now but will be going out shortly and might not get to look again until much later today, I have two comments to make at present.

Firstly is that the term "in law" didn't used to only mean what we understand it to nowadays, ie son's wife or wife's son, it did also mean stepson or daughter, so the 1871 entry will be correct.

As to where George has gone, if you have searched the actual indexes as it sounds like you have done and not just the FreeBMD site for the death of George (also bearing in mind that a name like that could well be mis-spelt - I've searched 10 years for an Ayre marriage and not yet found it but I know it's there) then I wonder whether George is trying to get work somewhere with the intention of sending for his family.  There have been many occasions when the husband wasn't at home and just can't be found although the rest of the family are there and the wife marked as married and often I think it's just because he's at a job somewhere or other than missed being enumerated as it wasn't a residence. 

Another thought is that he may have emigrated, if they had to put some children in the workhouse possibly for survival then he must have been desperate to make a better life for the family.  If he then died while travelling or actually there, then his death won't be registered here.

I'll have a look for 1861 as and when I can today.

Mary

[patrish]

Hi Mary , no worries as and when you can are fine, its very kind of you to try and help.

I have checked the gov death index's back from 1895 to 1887 when the last child was born. I even wondered if he had been "transported" but another chatter told me that had stopped by 1887.

As you rightly say Sarah must have been in dire circumstance to put 3 of the children in the workhouse also the fact that Sarah was living with Georges sister Emma Louisa Phillips I also think has some significance.

Thanks you so much Patrish.

[MaryA]

Have you looked at some of the images in the area?  Making an educated guess, based on their claim for birthplace and also where they are living in 1871 and where Richart and Harriet Petley were living in 1861, I'm assuming that the Ayrtons would have been living in St George in the East.

Some of the writing is extremely difficult to read, there is also at least one "school" of sorts and also a Workhouse where many people are just listed by initials or even no name on the index.  At least one page has been torn and so of course names are missed.

I have to tell you I'm not having any luck with just using the index and I hesitate to say to you to trawl through the area page by page as it must be huge, there are three sub-registration districts of St Paul, St Mary and St John but at the end of the day that might be your last resort.

If you open the 1861 census and scroll down you can choose the County you want and then you will see the listings for all areas, to choose St George in the East and then you find the sub districts, which again are broken down.

Mary ...... still looking

[MaryA]

I was wondering whether you knew when George senior died?  I've had a quick look through the death indexes and don't find one for George Ayrton, at least with the correct spelling, between 1870 and 1856.  The only possibility I have found is

George Ayrton Sept qtr 1856 Depwade ?b 128
But this should be way out for location.  I'm just wondering whether we are positively looking for George the father as well as the rest of the family in 1861, have you found his death?

[MaryA]

Another question, I'm assuming you have checked the marriage indexes for Emma Ayrton to Richard Petley, or are you making a logical assumption that Emma Petley is their mother?

If by any chance you haven't got this marriage could it be that Emma had yet another marriage in between ?

Have you found Richard and Emma in subsequent censuses? eg 1881, or if not Emma's death?  Interestingly there is a death for an Emma Ayrton June qtr 1887 West Ham (born 1833) .....probably a red herring since there is an Emma Ayrton born Surrey married to a Robert.

[patrish]

Hi Mary, I will try to explain the best I can.

I am quite sure that Emma (White) left George Ayrton after just a few years marriage (have cert he was about 9 years older than her) as no other children were born to them after Emma Louisa in 1857( have her birth cert.) I don't have her brother George though I have the entry March 1854 St. Geo East.  They were living in William St, St. G East then, I have a feeling that piece may be missing from the 61 census.

She seems to be living with Richard Petley in 1871, you will notice that there is child Richard newly born, his birth cert says Richard Ayrton, mother Emma Ayrton, father blank. I also found Richard Petley with a wife Harriet and I believe there was a son on 61

I have the father George b 1823 as a visitor in 1881 and a lodger in 1891 still down as married and he died in the Bermondsey workhouse in March 1895.

Hope this explains a few things, what a family

 I once trawled through all the dist in Whitechapel for the Phillips family, really arduous took me weeks

Have to pop out for some shopping, back soon.

Thanks Patrish.

[MaryA]

Been out and come back again.

Sorry I've had no success.  It could be due to a number of reasons, bad transcription (they could have been dittoed down from a family above with a different name), bad handwriting, torn pages or now you've confirmed something that was nagging in my mind, that Emma and children may have left George and could even be listed under a different name, I did look at Whites in the index but nothing appears to stand out as being possibles, except a George aged 4, correct birthplace, living in Patriot Street with his grandparents George and Mary Smith, but no Emma with him, mother or sister. RG9/277; Folio: 59; Page: 32 - highly unlikely to be calling himself White if he was with grandparents but was clutching at straws and you never know could have been successful if all three were there together.

I certainly don't believe Emma was married to Richard Petley before the 1871 census, probably was known by that name though to save face, especially with the baby.

Now you have confirmed that you don't think George died, I think this would be him in the 1871 census.

71 Thurlow Street, St Mary Newington
John (Candlemaker) and Emma Cripps and their children
George Ayrton Boarder 45 Candlemaker Bermondsey Surrey
RG10/ 617; Folio: 87; Page: 36

I now have cross eyes   

[patrish]

As you can see I am back as well.

Thats definately him you have found in. 71 he is still with the Cripps family on 1881 and I think in 1891.  I have not been able to trace Emma White prior to her marriage, it states her father Thomas White, Mathematical Instrument Maker, one witness was a Thomas White but it could be her brother, I know they did not always put deceased even if they were. But thats another search another time for me.

Do you know what's strange about this family, I have never found a "home" address, even George (the father) was a lodger prior to his marriage to Emma.

You have done exceptionally well and I really appreciate all the time and effort you have given to help me, somehow I don't think I will ever find George

Thank you so much for trying.

Patrish

[MaryA]

one witness was a Thomas White but it could be her brother

I would suspect that is more likely than it being her father witnessing the marriage.

You don't have an easy job ahead of you even finding the Whites but at least you now have the knack of searching the database, practice makes perfect! Lots of Luck with your searches, that's something we all need 

Mary