Vernon UTTLEY b 1899 WRY, living USA pre WW2. Lookup please

[Maggie.]

Hi Charlotte & Agnes,

Sorry to barge in but I have been watching your chat with interest - I am a Lancs cousin of Charlotte's (special hi Charlotte!).   

I cannot add to your current discussions except to say that Vernon's birthplace of 'Hebdon' is actually Hebden Bridge, near Todmorden, Yorkshire and I know it quite well.  It is a beautiful hillside Pennine small town, these days of some tourist note.
You are right Charlotte, it sure does beat housework!

Keep up the good work and
Regards,
Maggie

[charlotteCH]

Hi Agnes & maggie,

An update of what I have been pondering after taking your advice, Agnes, & checking out the images on Ellis Isl site- which I should have done as soon as you mentioned the site.

 The detail there  did ring bells- in 1915 Vernon came to visit his uncle Thomas BURNS- Vernon's mother was Agnes Burns. There is no detail of  the 1917 entry as that was in Boston , according to 1921 Ellis Isl report.   Funny that during WW1 a teenager pays two visits to the US.

It is the 1921 trip  where the British Govt paid his fare- very odd and needs investigating.  And  he is listed as having $200 with him on arrival which would have been a tidy sum in those days.  Why on earth would the Brit Govt pay the fare for a young man to emigrate?  After  the WW1 slaughter one would have thought they'd be glad to have every man remaining in UK. Another puzzle.

And one wonders if he did his training as an engineer in US or in England before 1921- just enough time given his age- but if that is so, why did the Brits pay to export a graduate?

But it is his descendants that really need to be my  focus  as they lead towards the present.  So I come back to the question of military records.

I'll explore that with  as a separate topic.

Back to more mundane things now. 
 Any suggestions about how to proceed are very welcome,
charlotte

[YvonneR]

Hi Charlotte

I spent all evening searching, hoping to come up with something and ended up quite frustrated as there seem to be so many clues  ....but where to go with them   

Well suddenly a eureka moment in that I have finally got a breakthrough, I have found Thomas Burns in 1920, he is shown as a lodger, although also shown as married and living on Batavia Street. The "Belmont Hospital" query also seems to be solved because Thomas's occupation is a Therapist in a Medical Institution. His immigration year is 1910 and naturalized 1918.

Somehow, I still think that the military is a link in some way and I have just looked at the 1930 census again to see if there are any clues. One major one I think and I don't know how I missed it first time  there is a part on the census that asks whether a "veteran of US military or Naval forces" and Vernon's answer is YES and "what war or expedition"  answer, WW. So he was obviously serving in someway during WWI.

Now the US didn't join the war until April 1917 and because of his age Vernon would have been in the Third Registration. This registration was on 12 Sept 1918, for men aged 18 to 21. Unfortunately I couldn't find a draft index card for Vernon but I believe that I have for Thomas Burns but wouldn't you know it is the most dreadful image and so hard to read. It certainly shows that he is married and was born Huddersfield, England but difficult to make out anything else so I have downloaded it and will see if I can do anything to make it more readable.

Thinking of Vernon in WWII, you would be able to apply for his Army records from The National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, MO. The sad thing is that in 1973 fire destroyed about 80% of the Army records. I made an application for my father's and unfortunately his was among those lost. I will find the link for an application and post it later.

Did Vernon return to the UK or did he stay in the US?

Well Charlotte, I'll leave it there for now and will let you know if I find anything else.

Best wishes

Agnes

[YvonneR]

Hi Maggie

Thanks for your lovely description of Hebdon Bridge.

I'm so sorry that I missed Charlotte's reference to it in her original message  It must of been one of my senior moments, I'm afraid 

Hopefully more info will turn up if we keep plugging away 

Best wishes

Agnes

[Maggie.]

Hi Agnes,

Yes Hebden Bridge is a lovely place, a bit touristy nowadays but in Vernon's time it would have been a typical mill town - lots of terraced houses on a steep hillside.

I am reading these posts with great interest as Charlotte and I share a common ancestry way back, but as far as Vernon and his American connection is concerned I feel a bit out of my depth!  However its interesting stuff and I must join with Charlotte in saying thanks so much for your efforts.

Regards, Maggie

[charlotteCH]

Hullo Agnes & Maggie,

Agnes, you are a tops as a detective. Finding Thomas with the therapist occupation may explain the hospital link for Vernon- although by the time he was naturalized Vernon was  an electrical eng.
I looked up GE at Newark where Vernon was in 1930 and they have a medical unit which develops technical stuff for medical use.  Although this has come a long way since 1930, maybe Vernon was part of this at the hospital in its early days.   The fact that hospital is part of Harvard Medical School could mean early experimental work went on there.

Vernon's military service in US forces is a bit of a mystery- he was not a citizen.  Would he have been called up as a non-citizen?  And why did he come to US then join up and not join the Brit army? Funny way to go on.

I'd be glad to have more info about asking for Vernon's miltary records in WW2 although I'll bet I'll have your luck and learn they went up in the fire also. 
If they still exist, do they give next of kin etc?

Agnes, you asked if Vernon remained in US- Vernon apparently had a house in London and one in US, and came and went.  In 1960s and 1970s he certainly visited England seeing family &. maybe on business.  I think America  was his real home and he just visited UK.
On another tack... are there publicly available on the net death records for US?

Thanks again
Best wishes,
charlotte

[YvonneR]

Hi Charlotte

I was just so tired last night that I had to leave it and thought that I would start afresh this morning.

In answer to your question regarding Vernon's US military service, yes! Aliens, naturalized and natural born were required to register for the draft. Of course not everyone who registered, served and also there would have been some who served but didn't register especially if they enlisted. Unfortunately at the moment I cannot find anything for Vernon, I have tried looking for different spellings and today i will have another go because you can find really good information on these.

For the WWII Military Service records, here is the link at Nara

http://www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records/get-service-records.html


I believe that only next of kin can apply online (although you do have to send signed copy of the application) but there is another form that you can send by post and I am a member of an Infantry Division Group that my father belonged to during WWII. Other's who are not next of kin have applied for these records but with limited information. These would be enough to take you forward in your research but....please be prepared for a long wait, I believe that Nara quote upto six months for a reply. Although I recieved an acknowledgement notice of my father's military service in two.

Interesting that you say that Vernon had a home here in England because last night I did a search for just "Vernon Uttley" and found that there were only two, both born in Yorkshire, one in 1894 in Keighley and your Vernon born in 1899. Now, I have found in the British Phone books a entry for Vernon Uttley with an address in Chingford, Essex. These start at 1971 and finish 1983 but obviously is a far stretch of the imagination to believe that this is your Vernon but if you want it, I would be happy to send it in a PM.

On to death indexes in the US, there is the Social Security Death Index and obviously I have searched this again coming up with a negative. I would say definitely that Vernon would have had a social security number which came into force in the mid 1930's but not everyone is in these indexes. My dad for instance isn't on it even though he had a number, as he died here in England. Here is a link to information regarding the SSDI

http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com/ssdi/missing.html

I will see if I can turn up anything else and will let you know as soon as I do

Best wishes

Agnes

[Maggie.]

Hi Charlotte & Agnes,

In your earlier posts you mention that the Ellis Island ship's manifest for Vernon in 1921 shows him having previously entered the US twice in 2 years, in 1915 and again in 1917.  I have been looking at the manifest and I read it differently.  I think it says that on his previous visit he stayed for 2 years, from 1915 to 1917.

The wording '2 yrs' is typed underneath the hand written dates, which I think read 1915 - 1917.

Looking at other entries on the page, for example the entry immediately above Vernon's entry, 1903 - 1921 is hand written and underneath is typed 18 yrs.  Also the column is headed 'If Yes' (visited US before) 'Year or Period of Years'.

Hope I am making sense!!

Regards,
Maggie

[YvonneR]

Hi Maggie

You are making perfect sense   

I am sorry that I didn't keep you up to date, I have been corresponding with PM's to Charlotte and she is aware of a query that I posted.

I believe you will be very interested to read the replies! Here is the link

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,185246.0.html

The response regarding the medical card isn't definite at the moment because there is another Vernon Uttley born 1894 in Keighley so obviously this needs investigating.

Best wishes

Agnes