1841 census Potts Cramlington

[Michael Dixon]

Well, Jack, I think you are taking the (possible) set-back very well.

I went into a family heritage centre in SligoTown, Ireland, about 15 yrs ago and told them I was looking for my ggf John Gallagher. When I told them I wasn't sure when he was born and did not know in which parish or which town he was born, they all laughed and said .. here's 2000 of them, take your pick !

An old man understood my dilemma and said .. "whatever you do, resist the temptation to ink one of these Johns in, without good proof, keep the contenders in pencil, or you'll regret it ! "

I still have'nt found them there (although) I have every step he took in Northumberland.

I was born in Bebside Colliery (Blyth) and went to school in Morpeth, and yes there were tons of Johnsons about... all over.

In my non-expert opinion, I would say that neither Seaton Delaval nor Morpeth folk speak with a burr... maybe you have to go farther north into the county to get a burr. ?


And of course I will send you all the census stuff ( I assumed you had access to Ancestry) but not tonight (eyes knackered)

I have no connections to Gateshead, although I spent some time researching the Irish who became chemical labourers in Heworth/Felling/Bill Quay in 1800s.

Michael

[Michael Dixon]

Jack,

Twins James and John on C1871 are shown as children of Margaret and John Johnson, not as children of Mary ??

Michael

[jackspratt]

Hello again

The copy of the 1861 census details given to me shows Family Number 7432.6 Cassop 1861 census, Tursdale and show the household as John Johnson, Margaret Johnson. Mary Potts, sister-in-law, Allinder (?)[Alexander M.] Potts, James Potts, son, 4 months, John Potts, son 4 months,

A postscript has been added to the effect that Allinder is shown as Johnson in the enumerator's report.

None of these children appear again in the Johnson household but Margaret was to give birth to twins sometime later in the year . I haven't got round to finding out the exact date yet - mainly because they were called John and Thomas and of course difficult to identify. Thomas died when he was 15 and I have got that cert. but of course it doesn't help for his birth.

My mother used to imitate her grandfather's pronunciation of "brown bread" (broon breed) with a strong emphasis on the r on the back of the tongue. He was born in 1832 (or 4 or thereabouts according to which census you believe) so maybe things were different then.

I look forward to the 'proper family' arriving. Let's hope they're even better connected than the 'wrong' one.

I, too, have Irish connections on my father's side in French Park, Roscommon but thankfully have a distant cousin trying to track them down (together with half of Co.Durham and a couple in Australia). I haven't placed any bets on their chances of success.

Thanks in anticipation

Jack   

[Michael Dixon]

Jack,

Most Northumbrians, including me say "broon breed", but don't eat it !.

(only kidding.. well half-kidding)

At primary school, we were encouraged to say...

" Round the rugged rock, the ragged rascal ran"  ..

without sounding as if we were going to spit !

Michael

[Michael Dixon]

Jack,

For your consideration................

C1841 Lysdon 820/19-42-2
John Johnson, 40 Ag lab N
Martha Johnson 40 Y
John Johnson 12 Ag lab Y
Isabelle Johnson 9 Y
Ann Johnson 7 Y
Mary Johnson 5 Y
Sarah Johnson 3 Y

( Lysdon lay just a touch north from Seaton Delaval. N= not born in this county/Northumberland, Y=born in this county)
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C1851 Beacon  Lough, High Fell, Gateshead 2402-426-29
Head John Johnson 52 Ag Lab, born Durham
Wife Martha Johnson 53 b. Northumberland
Son Robert Johnson 22 Ag Lab, b. "
Son John Johnson, Blacksmith, b.  "
Dtr, Bell Johnson 18, b. "
Dtr Ann Johnson 16, b.  "
Dtr Mary Johnson 14, b.  "
Dtr Sarah Johnson, 12, b.  "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

More to come...........


Michael Dixon

[Michael Dixon]

C1861 Tursdale Colliery, Cassop. 3740-38-35
Head John Johnson 30 Blacksmith, b.Seaton Delaval
Wife Margaret Johnson 22 , b. Cramlington
Siater-in-law Mary Potts unmarried 20, b.Cramlington
SON Allinder Johnson 2, b. New Brancepath

Allinder looks just like Allinder

___________________________________

C1871 Tursdale Colliery, Cassop 4966-32-26
Head John Johnson 39 Blacksmith, b. Seaton Delaval*
Wife Margaret 32 b. Cramblton**
Dtr Ellen Johnson 12 b. Sleatburn/Sleakburn
Son Thomas Johnson 10, b.Tursdale
Son John Johnson 10, b. "
Dtr Elizabeth Johnson 8 b. "
Dtr Mary Johnson, 6, b.  "
Son William Johnson 4, b.  "
Son Robert Johnson, 8mths, b.  "

* enumerator wrote "Durham" after Seaton Delaval.. ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

** On Pronunciation angle... us Blyth folk might say CRAMLINGTON something like "Cramelton"  ( Also BEDLINGTON like Beddleton)

Michael Dixon

[jackspratt]

Many thanks once again, Michael. You have been very helpful.

There are surprising similarities between the two families both in the parents' ages and in the names and ages of their children. It looks, however, as though I'm going to have to abandon Mitford.

I'm still not totally convinced (or don't want to be) in view of the fact that  Mitford John Johnson's children were born in Woodhorn and Widdrington which, am I right in thinking, virtually Seaton Delaval? Not far away anyway.

I'm OK on young John and his family 1871 and after in that I know that I've got the right ones.

What is missing for Gateshead JJ are the birthplaces of himself and his wife and children as they're not given in 1841 or 1851. I see young John's age is missing also in 1851, though he should be 22. In the 1861 census for him in Tursdale that you sent you'll see that he's 30 (he's 39 in 1871) These ages are consistent with young Mitford John who was  19 in 1851.

I'm thinking aloud a bit here but I'm sure that you're getting some sense of my dilemma !

Could I impose on your generousity just once more Michael?

Do you think you could  let me have the 1861 census details of Gateshead JJ senior? His birthplace and that of his wife and those of any of his children that are with him still will be of help to me.

Ho hum

Many thanks

Jack

[Michael Dixon]

Jack,

All your chewing over is relevant..... except Woodhorn vis-a-vis Seaton Delaval.

There is little chance of Seaton Delaval been written instead of Woodhorn or vice-versa, other than as a simple mistake !

It is not just a matter of the distance between them ( about 7 miles), but what lies between them !

If we just talk "ancient parishes".... from Woodhorn in the north, coming south, we have to go through the parishes of Newbiggin, then Bedlington, then Horton, then into Earsdon. Seaton Delaval was one of the eight "townships" ( a sub-division of a parish) of the parish of Earsdon.

Also up to 1844, Bedlington ( the wider area was called Bedlingtonshire) was owned by the Prince Bishops of Durham, was was regarded as within the County of Durham, and not part of Northumberland.

I hope to help settle this little geographic issue, by browsing parish records of Woodhorn and Earsdon for Johnson bapts
( images of the church records will be available when the Northumberland County Record Office opens end Oct/beginning Nov,,,, in WOODHORN..... but Newcastle Library has some indexes..)


Michael Dixon

[jackspratt]

Thanks Michael - I had no intention of setting you a mission when I started this, you know.

Your obviously a man who when asked to go one mile goes the extra one.

The biggest stumbling block is the lack of a viable alternative entry in 1841. I looked on the 1837 online site but they haven't covered N'land yet.

I had a look for Gateshead J and Martha in the 1837 quick search option and see that they're still there in 1861.

Do you happen to have that census and the details? It might help to bring this quest to a close, possibly, maybe.

Jack