Up a creek without a paddle!

[AMBLY]

Hi Maureen
Gotta ask  I don't suppose there's any chance any of the wedding witness of Arthur & Agnes were surname PICKERING or MAINWARING.....the surnames of the people Arthur H BROWN, the 23 yr old American born, married, Grocer's Clerk was visiting in 1901 Census in Newcastle, Glamorgan 

Cheers
AMBLY

[Denmark]

Hi Ambly, The people who witnessed the wedding are shown as Daisy Maud Webber, who is the wife of the minister, W.W.Webber, and the other name is Elizabeth Osborne. The marriage was at the Zion Chapel, Lower Oxford Street, and the ceremony according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Bible Christians.  Arthur signs the certificate A.Chester Brown. The father of Agnes was a Solicitor, but is deceased. It appears that these two were from fairly wealthy families, Walter Henry being of Independent Means.    I wonder why they went to Leeds for the birth of my father in law and then had him fostered out?  Also why did the family return from America to live in Bath again? I wish I could be sure that this is the right family.  My husband does not seem to know anything about his father's background other than him being fostered out. He was fostered to a Mrs Hyams living in Harehills, Leeds, but we don't know when. Also there was never any mention of his grandfather being born in America.  Maybe he did not know!   The name Chester is more American don't you think?  Sorry to be asking so many questions.  Maureen

[Denmark]

I should have added that Mabel was obviously pregnant when they got married and maybe because of the status of both families they did not want them to know.  I have a suspicious mind

[osprey]

I think a little bit of exaggeration was going on for this marriage cert. The Agnes living at 30 Dillwyn St in 1901 was a servant. She gave her pob as Leeds. The only Agnes Kenney from around that area on the 1881 and 1891 was born Wadworth near Doncaster. Her father was Edward and he was a gardener.
1891 The Lodge, St Catherine's, Loversall RG12/3858 folio 67 pg 12
Edward Kenney head mar 47 gardener(domestic) b. Ireland
Mary A wife 49 b. Yorks, Loversall
Agnes M dau 14 scholar b. Wadsworth
Margaret dau 10 b. Balby
It looks like they lived in the lodge of a BIG house as there are loads of servants in the nearby houses including a game-keeper but no owner at first glance. Edward might have died by the time of their marriage but I can't see a death on FreeBmd.
Walter appears to be comfortably off judging by the family's voyage to the US, but 'independent means' seems to be stretching it. He was a sewing machine agent in 1891 and an insurance agent in 1901 and employed. He could have come into money in the meantime, but it does look like a case of people exaggerating their backgrounds if these are the correct families.

Where in Leeds was Arthur Baron Brown born? I wonder whether Agnes went to stay with her sister or another family member - it wasn't uncommon for a wife to return to her mother for the birth of the first child. If you have the address on the birth cert, it might be possible to find who was there at the time of the 1901. Adoption didn't start until 1927 so if he was fostered, it would have been unofficially and probably no paperwork.

[AMBLY]

Also some ideas (though the best is Osprey's re: the 1901 census for the address of Arthur Baron's birth....

1)  Arthur signed his wedding cert as A. Chester BROWN.
Does this indicate he used his middle name - I do think it's a very "American"  thing to do, to call himself "First Initial, middle fullname, surname".
And I agree Chester sounds far more American than English. I wonder if he was inordinately 'proud' of his American birth and viewed it a being a bit "exotic" and so he exaggerated it by calling himself as he did, and by adopting a middle name of Chester to replace Herbert, for some reason?

2) Arthur Baron BROWN was fostered out by his parents Agnes Mabel and Arthur Chester/Herbert  - and  yet later your husband , Arthur Baron's son - was bestowed  then name "Chester" as part of his name. Does this indicate Arthur Baron may have had continued association with his father or his father's family, or else the reason he was fostered was not because he was abandoned by his parents by choice, but perhaps by death....?

3) You refer to Agnes Mabel as Mabel only. Was this a typo, or is she remembered in family stories as just "Mabel"?

4) WW1 - would Arthur Chester/Herbert have a military record?

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Hi again

I wonder if the foster mother is a way to go - you said in an earlier post that you have a photo of Arthur Baron BROWN taken in his early 20's with his foster mother.  How old would you say that foster mother, Mrs HYAMS might be?

You also said above that in the 1881 Census, Agnes Mabel KENNEY was shown as age 8. Have you the ref for that Census (or where was it and who else was with her?)

Cheers
AMBLY

[Denmark]

Thanks so much to you all for taking an interest in my query. This is the first time I have ever had such a response.   I will try and answer your questions as best I can and hope you can make sense of it all.

My reference to Mabel was a typo!!  We have no information about either of them from any family members...all now deceased.

First query re the 1881 census.  Agnes Mabel Kenney is shown here as a visitor. There was a lodger from Swansea there, was she visiting him?

 Name  Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
 Jane JACKSON   Head   U   Female   74   Mirfield, York, England       
 Anne Elizabet HASH   Niece   U   Female   21   Wakefield, York, England   Domestic Servant     
 Agnes Mabel KENNEY   Visitor      Female   8   (B S), Germany       
 Eyth MAXIMILIAN   Lodger   U   Male   44   Swansea, Wales   Engineer (& Mac)     
 William Carr CROFTS   Lodger   U   Male   33   Bradford, York, England   Architect 

  Dwelling   41 Mount Preston
  Census Place Leeds, York, England
  Family History Library Film   1342091
  Public Records Office Reference   RG11
  Piece / Folio   4534 / 53
  Page Number   10

She is shown as being born in Germany. B.S. Does this mean her father was in Germany?    (Why is this woman so complicated!)
Here are the actual records of her birth:
Agnes Mabel Kenney, Sept.qtr 1872 Swansea Glamorgan, West Glamorgan, Vol 11a p628

The address shown on Arthur Baron Brown's birth certificate is 11 St.Marks Street, Leeds.  On this certificate the father is shown as Arthur Herbert Brown, not Chester as on the marriage certificate. This is what throws a spanner in the works!

Agnes Mabel Kenney's father was John Henry Carver (or Craven) Kenney, a solicitor, deceased at the time of their marriage.

This I think is Agnes' family on the 1881 census. Note two of the daughters were born in Swansea, Wales:

 Household:

 Name  Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
 Elizabeth KENNY   Head   M   Female   32   Leeds, York, England       
 Ada H. KENNY   Daur      Female   13   Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales   Scholar     
 Florence P. KENNY   Daur      Female   12   Leeds, York, England   Scholar     
 Gwenllian E. KENNY   Daur      Female   10   Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales   Scholar     
 Beatrice A. KENNY   Daur      Female   7   Batley, York, England   Scholar     
 Gertrude E. KENNY   Daur      Female   5   Batley, York, England       
 John C. KENNY   Son      Male   4   Batley, York, England       
 Mary A. KENNY   Visitor   U   Female   52   Wakefield, York, England   Housekeeper (Dom)     
 Mary J. WATSON   Visitor   M   Female   39   Leeds, York, England   Nurse (Dom)     
 John W. CAMPBELL   Visitor   U   Male   29   Leeds, York, England   Clerk     
 Sarah E. CAMPBELL   Sister   U   Female   22   Leeds, York, England   Servant Domestic     
 William H. CAMPBELL   Boarder   U   Male   37   Leeds, York, England   Ostler (     


~~~~~~~~
Source Information:
  Dwelling   109 Meadow Lane
  Census Place Leeds, York, England
  Family History Library Film   1342081
  Public Records Office Reference   RG11
  Piece / Folio   4510 / 15
  Page Number   24

Agnes fits in between Gwenllian and Beatrice.
 
On the 1891 census Gwenllian Kenney is working as a barmaid in Swansea.

Re Arthur's foster mother.  The photo I have is of Arthur maybe in his early 20's and "Aunt Alice" as the photo refers to her is maybe 50 plus.  Also noted on the photo is Arthur's foster mother.  Mrs Hyams.

If you are all as confused as I am you will be needing a cup a tea or something stronger by now    Maureen

[Denmark]

I have just been going through all my notes on the Campbell family and found a copy of the 1851 census for St.Mark, Woodhouse district of Leeds.  On there was Martha Elizabeth Campbell, mother of Agnes, and her parents who were living at 63 St.Marks Street, Leeds...the street where Arthur Baron was born.  Maybe some family member still lived in this street 30 years later.

[Denmark]

I wonder if anyone can help me to find more information on this person:
GEORGE BARON BROWN    Male
Christening 3 March 1831
Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire, England.
 
Parents.
Father:   William Brown
Mother    Sarah
 
Source Information:
Bath number:       Dates          Source Call No      Type   Printout Call No.          Type.
 
C071934               1831-          0918387-             Film     6900088                   Film
                           1834           0918389


"BARON" was the middle name of my father in law Arthur Baron Brown and I have not come across this name before.  Could this be a relative?