End of Patronymic naming - children taking different surnames?

[tanwenhaf]

I was just wondering if this was common...

Moses was born 1798 in Trawsfynydd to a Thomas Hugh and Margaret (Jones)
On the Bishops Transcripts it does not record surnames for the children, just says "son of..." or "daughter of..."

I have Moses down on censuses as Hughes but the only marriage in the right time and place I can find is for a Moses Thomas, the wifes name also matches.

I have read that wives often did not take their husbands name back then and were known as for example, Margaret the wife of Thomas Hugh or simply Margaret Jones.

I have found a Margaret Jones on the 1841 census along with a Joseph Thomas who I believe is her son.
Elsewhere I have also found a John Pugh who might possibly be another son...


Has anyone any experience of this?
I would want to jump to incorrect conclusions.
Thanks,
Tan.

[Gadget]

I have heard of it happening in other people's lines.

The current editor of Hel Achau (Clwyd FHS journal) had, I gather, a family who took on different surnames and one even reverted to another surname in his life time.

Gadget

[alwyn21]

Quite usual in Wales - in fact it would be unusual to find someone with the same surname as his father up until about 1830.
The patronymic pattern is the Welsh tradition, where a man's place in society was identified by his ability to show who he was descended from and over how many generations. The laws of the Welsh King,Hywel Dda, also made kinsmen responsible for the deeds of their relations up to the ninth degree of relationship so it was important to know who you were related to, because you migth have to pay 'galanas'( blood money) for them!

On this particular question, Moses ap Hugh, would in turn have a son who might be Dafydd ap Moses or John ap Moses, which, as time passed and English census takers insisted that everyone should have a surname, would become the surname Moses.Or their sons might end up as a Davies (Dafydd is the Welsh form of David) in the first instance, and a Jones in the second.
In Meirionnydd it went on quite late - in the 1850s my ancestor Thomas Rowlands had sons John Thomas and Thomas Thomas - John Thomas' son as Edward Thomas ( no middle name), but he was always known as Edward John Thomas

[Peterej]

It is interesting but I am looking at Merioneth at the moment and in my opinion it varies considerably over a century. I have found relatives of my wife who stayed with the surname - ie not patronymic as early as 1774. I am sure there are many examples where patronymics does continue much later.

It seems also that the wife retained her name as for example I have a Hanna Evans who married firstly Robert Hughes and then Griffith Thomas but I believe was buried still Hanna Evans.

It all goes to making life a little more difficult but always interesting.

Peter

[Gadget]

My Penllyn ancestors saved me from having 2 Roberts lines by using the patronymic form for an extra generation so I had  an Ellis marry  a Roberts 

I like patronymics - much better than surnames!


Gadget

[Peterej]

Hi Gadget

I suppose it does work both ways sometimes!

Peter

[alwyn21]

I'd agree with Peterej that the dates differed, but the key influence was the insistence by (largely monoglot English-speaking) census officials from 1841 onward that all those whom they registered should have a surname - this also accounts largely for the prevalence in Wales of so many Joneses, Evanses, Pugh ( ap Hugh) or Puw, (ap Huw) Williams, Davies etc   

[brawd houdini]

Hello tanwenhaf,

Sometimes it is easier to forget all you know about surnames and put yourself and your immediate family into Patronymic mode.This I think makes the system easier to understand.People quite often are confused into thinking that everything to do with family matters emanate from the father,but to the old Welsh way of thinking and also to the old Welsh legal system[which carried on until the 1500's!] the female or mother's side of the tree was equally valid,hence the use of 'ferch'.

The other useful tool is the old Welsh system of naming the first born son after the father's father,the second born son after the mother's father and so on.The same would also be valid for the female side.This is not as accurate as the 'ap' or 'ferch' used but is surprisingly common.In one of my lines I can trace Jenkyn and John back from today to about 1500 used in this way.

Hope this helps to make things clearer.

Regards,brawd houdini

[Gadget]

Hi again

Could I ask a question which has just occurred to me, please 

How did the patronymic form handle illegitimacy?  'Son of' and 'Daughter of' seem to have always used the father's name in my experience.

My grandfather(b. 1866)  was illegitimate and his father was not known (apart from to his mother who never divulged it). He took his mother's surname but how would he have been named if patronymics were still extant?

Gadget