Ship owners - Sunderland & South Shields

[julianb]

Your friend is correct

Stan

Thanks - that's very helpful indeed.  Greatly appreciated

JULIAN

[Cherielynn]

Hi: all I see everyone has the same data that I do and that is great to have my work verified after all these years of struggling with records.. Thanks to all for the new data and here are my very messy notes. I will write up Harry Hutton Kidd next and maybe someone can help us find him -- he left Wisconsin sometime 1920-1930 and has never been heard from again. I still wonder if he might have gone to New Zealand or back to England.

Here are messy notes that I see have already been corrected by Stan...

Mary Ann Logan Thompson, I did NOT keep the notes, the info was all IGI and did not have batch numbers with the records and were only personal submissions (quality of research from Logan 1-3). But the parents are named as Joseph Logan and Ann Seton. Her parents are named as Charles Seton b 11 Jun 1711, Bellingham, Northumberland, England and d 1781 Dunterley, near Bellingham, England wife Ann Dodds no data.

Ann Havelock Lee info from family researcher M Havelock (quality of research from Havelock 8-10). Father William Havelock b22 May 1728 Guisborough, North Riding of Yorrshire, England, d10 Oct 1777 Sunderland, County Durham, England married 06 Jan 1754 Guisborough Anne Longbotham b1728, d24 Mar 1804 Sunderland, County Durham, England.

William son of George Havelock and Mary Barry. Anne daughter of Jacob Longboathom.

Brother to Ann, William Havelock b02 Dec 1756 Sunderland d24 Jun 1836 Heavitree married 16 Aug 1787 Bishopswearmouth Jane Carter b14 Jun 1769 Yarm, Yorkshire, England d26 Feb 1810 Ingress Park, Kent, England parents of Henry.

M Havelock has descendants of many lines of the Havelocks and sorted most of them out with contact with descendants worldwide.

Enoch Thompson and father needs full research to verify. Speculation on Darkerly Donkerly. Family of Donkersley has a family forum and contacted S. Donkersley we found no connection his line was in…? can’t remember old family files on other computer I will look later maybe was Guisborough that his line was from and maybe that is why I contacted will look…

James Lee the 1841 census is bothersome leaves one wondering is this James Lee…
Information removed
…The father of James Lee husband of Ann Havelock Lee?

NEHGS has Early American Newspaper collection with some shipping news from the UK and the continent. Many ships of the specified names coming and going at different times but no certainties.

James Lee and Ann Havelock Lee

Son William Havelock Lee married possibly Hannah

Son James Lee too many of them to be certain of anything.

Son Charles Lee also too many to be anything but speculation

Son Henry Lee 1871 census???
 
Wondering??

Henry Lee and Ann Thompson Lee

Son Henry Thompson Lee d Dec 1864 Durham, have cert somewhere on other computer

Daughter Anne Mary Lee – no info

Daughter Clara Jane Lee married Bet. Oct - Dec 1873 Lancashire John Kendall had Anne C Kendall c1875, Charles Kendall c1876, Florence Lee Kendall c1883, Elsie Victoria Kendall c1888. Public records end.

Daughter Harriet Alice Lee married Sep 1871 ) Lancashire 8b 363 Liverpool James Hutton Kidd

The Original One-acre Sections in the
Town of Wellington, and their Purchasers.
993.     Riddiford Street     James Kidd
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WarEarl-t1-body-d16-d4.html#name-208401-1

from bio of son James Hutton Kidd Jr
immigrated to New Zealand...

Harriet Alice Lee and her husband, James Hutton Kidd, a tailor. The family emigrated to New Zealand when Hutton Jr was a child, initially settling in Christchurch.

Son James Hutton Kidd Jr b12 Sep 1877 Hexham, Northumberland, England d1945 Greytown, New Zealand married Ethel Laura Lola Gilbert in New Zealand she d1970 Eastbourne, New Zealand (No children)

James Jr bio with Photographs

Kidd, James Hutton   1877 - 1945
Horticulturist, community leader
 
James Hutton Kidd was born on 12 September 1877 in Hexham, Northumberland, England, the son of Harriet Alice Lee and her husband, James Hutton Kidd, a tailor. The family emigrated to New Zealand when he was a child, initially settling in Christchurch. Hutton, as he was known, trained for agricultural work before deciding on an orcharding career. With his brother Wilfred, he started growing apples and other fruit on a small block in Wanganui's town belt. In 1906 he moved his fruit-growing operations to Greytown, reputedly because of poor health. He purchased a five-acre block, but soon expanded this to a 20-acre orchard. Kidd married Ethel Laura (Lola) Gilbert on 31 August 1916 in Roseneath, Wellington; they were to have no children.

Hutton Kidd's interest in a scientific approach to orcharding led him to experiment with new techniques. More…

http://www.teara.govt.nz/Places/Wairarapa/Wairarapa/8/ENZ-Resources/Biography/1/en

Son Wilfred Kidd b Bet. 1870 – 1880 England left working with brother James Jr archives had no data – There IS a family whose data ends with Alexander Hutton Kidd in New Zealand have had contact, contact expected again in Fall 2008-09-03


More…

[Cherielynn]

I do hope I am placing posts and info correctly, please tell me if I am not. Thanks to all and here is bit more on US data of the Lee Kidds
I have no detail on the Barry family only that Mary was POSSIBLY Only the daughter of George Barry and Dorothy Young

Harry Hutton Kidd son of Caroline Lee Kidd and John Kidd

John and Caroline disappear from records after the 1880 census in Indiana, have read most of the 1890 directories (1890 census substitutes) and nothing comes up. There is POSSIBLY only a Mary Kidd living near Harry Hutton in 1900 in Green Bay but nothing to verify. All death records in Wisconsin have been search by cousin M Leahy. Hope still to find the Naturalization of Harry Hutton Kidd or John Kidd.

Harry Hutton Kidd married 13 Feb 1896 Green Bay, Wisconsin Louise Salvas b Oct 1872 Green Bay d 12 Sep 1962 Green Bay. Louise is the daughter of Pierre* Peter (dit-Laviolette) Salvas of Saint Michel, D'Yamaska, Quebec, Canada and Exupere* Marie Lizotte also of St Michel. Children: Harry Joseph Hutton Kidd, Eloise Kidd, Wilfred Ernest Kidd, Margaret Kidd, Anthony Arthur Kidd, Patrick Hutton Kidd, another Reginald Sherman Kidd, and a child died as infant. 1900, 1910, 1920 census Green Bay, WWI Draft Green Bay.

Son of Caroline and John - Ernest had two known children both deceased, John Kidd and Ernest Kidd Jr. WWI Draft Denver states is Blind, 1930 census Denver with wife and children.

Thanks again to all, let me know if any questions. regards, Cherielynn

[stanmapstone]

Brother to Ann, William Havelock b02 Dec 1756 Sunderland d24 Jun 1836 Heavitree married 16 Aug 1787 Bishopswearmouth Jane Carter b14 Jun 1769 Yarm, Yorkshire, England d26 Feb 1810 Ingress Park, Kent, England parents of Henry.

Jane Carter was the daughter of John Carter of Yarm and his wife Elizabeth Ettrick, daughter of William Ettrick Esq., of High Barnes, and his wife Isabella Langley. William Havelock died in Heavitree in Exeter, Devon, 24th June 1836.

Stan

[Cherielynn]

Ship owners Henry Lee, Enoch Donkerley Thompson, Joseph Logan Thompson, Evan Thompson, Thompson, Lee and Co, with Snowden, Tate, Dickinson and others, Including an A. Thompson and Ann Thompson…

A few other ships owned by these people…

From Christie’s shipping register, maritime compendium and commercial advertiser in 1858
Google books
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04me/ 


In Shields NO page numbers, but searchable

Off.-No   Ships       Rig    TR    Built             Class      
Registered Owners

17, 055   Ann Lee      bk   383    1856 in Sunderland      9A
J. L. Thompson, Henry Lee, South Shields

24,430       Cambyses      bg   254   1848 in Tyne          7A
John Snowden, H. Lee, South Shields

25,442       LaBelle,       bg   330   1845 in USA         AE
Joseph L & Enoch D. Thompson, Hen. Lee, Jno. Snowden, South Shields

27,091       Lady Sarah Bayly   bk   307   1839 Brandy Cove N.B.    4AE
E. D. and J. L. Thompson, Henry Lee, P. Thompson, S. Shields, J. Dickinson, Jarrow

2,025       New Zealand    bk    674   1842 St. John’s N.B.          4-
Joseph l., Enoch D., and Evan Thompson, Henry Lee, George A., and Hannah Tate. John Snowden, J. P. Rennoldson, Matthew Aisbit, S. Shields; Edward Robertson, Edinbro

25,350      Ellergill,       sh    ?360    1813 Hull          …
John Snowden, Joseph Logan Thompson, Henry Lee

2,303         Alice Thompson    bk   308   1851 Sunderland      8A
Joseph L Thompson, South Shields

2,219         E.D.T.      bk   396   1853 Sunderland      8A
Joseph L. Thompson, Henry Lees, South Shields

26, 711       East London    bk   363   1839 Sunderland      8
Joseph L. Thompson, S. Shields
          
North of England Maritime Directory, Shipping Register and Commercial Advertiser By Thomas Marwood Jun. 1848-1849
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04mf/ 

Pages 17, Ship and Insurance Brokers – Lee Thompson and Snowden

Off.-No   Ships       Rig    TR    Built             Class      
Registered Owners

Page 28
                Deptford      snow   262   1840 Sunderland
Thompson, Lee and Co. South Shields

                 Exertion       sch   142   1844 Sunderland
T. & J. K. Lee Sunderland

         William       brig    211   1830 Sunderland
Lee, Todd & Co – L. Lambton, Sunderland

      Amazon       brig    250    1825 Leith
J. L. Thompson and Co South Shields   


         Ann      sloop    20    1818 North Shields
Chr. Thompson. South Shields

         Deptford       Snow      262    1840 Sunderland
Thompson, Lee and Co, South Shields

         Dr. Winterbottom    Sch       145    1844 South Shields
Haliday and Thompson, South Shields

         Jane       Sch         60      1816 Gainsboro
J. W. Thompson Gateshead

      Jane       Barq              388    1840 South Shields
E. D. Thompson and Co South Shields

          Jane Thompson     Brig              293    1840 Sunderland
C. Tate and Co., South Shields

           Messenger    Brig            232       1830 Jersey
Name A. Thompson, South Shields
 
          Prince of Brazil    snow            238        1797 Hull
Name A. Thompson, South Shields

           Ralph Thompson   Barq                 385       1847 Bill Quay
Name A. Thompson, South Shields

            Rapid          Snow    255      1830 Montreal
J. L. Thompson & Co, South Shields

            Peggy       Unrig        33    1840 Sunderland
Name A. Thompson, Bishopswear.

            Placid        Brig       234      1840 Sunderland
J. Thompson, Bishopswear.

            Gulnare       Sch            138         1844 Hartlepool
Catherine Thompson and Ann Thompson Bishopsw., John P. Denton and Co. Hartlepool

Lee and Co 45 Villers Street Sunderland Merchant

Lee, Thomas R. & Son 45 Villers Street Sunderland, Ship and Insurance Brokers,

Cherielynn

[Westoe]

Hello again CherieLynn,

Everything still in storage, but am feeling guilty about not having given you anything yet. As replies subsequent to my initial one demonstrate, my original "off-the-top-o'-me-haid"
estimate was wrong. We are talking about the same family.

Some of the ships in your list are not ours tho' e.g. Amazon and Rapid. There was a famous, large and long-established firm called J. L. Thompson & Co. which is entirely unrelated.

Here are a couple you didn't mention:
Jackson, a brig of 223 tons, built 1827 at Workington, owned jointly in 1848 by E. D. THOMPSON, J. L. THOMPSON and H. LEE.

Toronto (Official Number 2091), a barque of 350 tons, built 1834 in Montreal owned by John, Mary A. and Ann SNOWDON and by John BURFIELD (their son-in-law), and by Joseph L. THOMPSON (another son-in-law), and by George A. TATE.

Another Google book you might like to look at is:
Cases Selected from Those Heard and Determined in the Vice-admiralty Court for Lower Canada [1836-1856; 1859-1874]: Relating Chiefly to the Jurisdiction and Practice of the Court, Or Involving Questions of Maritime Law of Frequent Occurrence in the Trade and Navigation of the River and Gulf of ...
By Québec (Province). Vice-Admiralty Court
Published by , 1875
John SNOWDON and Henry Havelock LEE were plaintiffs in a case and won.

More coming ... eventually.

Regards,
Westoe

[Westoe]

Hello again CherieLynn,

Thank you for the PM. However, in the interests of others looking for this far-flung family, I will keep my posts public. (Grin - I know of at least one other distant cousin of yours who is using Rootschat but who so far has not yet posted to this thread.)

To go back to Post #1 in this thread: julianb was enquiring, on behalf of his mate Lee, "What ever happened to the family money?"

Well, there are two simple answers.
1)  It's at the bottom of the sea, along with the bones of a lot of poor sailormen ... and ...
2) It went into the pockets of lawyers.

julianb posted correctly. These Thompsons had neither steam nor iron - they were strictly sail and wood (which knocks a few more candidates off the list of ships you posted. You can also knock off the ones not from Shields and listed under a single initial . They were an arrogant and prideful lot.  They may have been (temporarily) fugitives deliberately adopting one of the most common surnames in the NE, but once they'd made a little money again, they flaunted their names.

Actually, they followed a textbook pattern. They were living in a maritime environment making a living from the subtrades of the merchant marine. When they had a little money to invest, they bought small shares in some decrepit old bangers. Through luck and the grace of God (remember that this was before loading laws, Plimsoll lines and Official Numbers), they had some successful voyages and made a little money.

They moved up - to larger shares in not-quite-so-ancient-and-somewhat-larger bangers and (again by luck and the G of G) made a little more money. They moved up again - first to wholly owned ships and then to made-to-order ships. Shipping was dangerous - there were losses, but then there were several ships to average the losses out. They lived well - the marble bath and the commisioned paintings. Then they had a run of bad luck.

I referred earlier in this thread to family lore about a collier that broke her back in the Tyne. That's not just a legend. It's so. But she wasn't just a coastal trader. The "New Zealand" was brand new, large and taking a load of coal all the way to Aden. She loaded at the North Eastern Railway's brand new dock (which was open for business in spite of construction not being  completely finished), went aground in the basin while being piloted out and was a total loss. There followed an expensive, protracted, and ultimately unsuccessful  lawsuit and countersuit. Whatever was left of the family money, the lawyers got. Joseph went bankrupt and emigrated.

You can read the summaries of the suit and subsequent appeal in Google Books. Unfortunately, I cannot post the links directly. However if you search Google Books for:

"Thompson et al" +"New Zealand"

you should have no problem finding them. There are pages and pages of it - enough to put you to sleep tonight - grin.


More coming,

Westoe

[Cherielynn]

Dear Westoe: Thank you for your reply. I did not intend to make my previous message hidden from others I am still not sure about how and where replies go and I wanted to reply to your previous post and clicked incorrectly.

I am not concerned about money or where any money went, but found your info about the perils of the shipping business and how expensive lawyers are very interesting. This illustrates truth then and now.

I don't think that it was Julian who made the comment about the family not getting into steam ships but another.

It wasn't until the mid 1860s when insurance for steam ships began to exceed that of sail (according to one site speaking of Lloyd's insurance) so again I didn't think much of their judgment either way, sailing ships remained profitable for many decades beyond the death of all those concerned.

Enoch was certainly older in the 1848 list of ships but all the sons-in-law were still relatively young men, certainly under the age of 30 so for them to have shares in ships was their beginnings in business and it might appear to me, they might just be trying to stay afloat in what was not only a perilous business but also a cutthroat business.

As far as what ships are what type, who owned them and when, and when they sailed, I will go over my researcher again. I have found information on some of the ships and their trips before, during and after they were known to be owned or co-owned by the Thompson or Lee or other related families.

I will look for the lawsuit you mentioned and have a read of that as well.

All information about the families is welcome and I wait with great interest for your next installment.

All the best, Cherie Lynn

[Westoe]

Hello Cherielynn,

A few odd bits and pieces:

1) THOMPSON and LEE selling a barque

The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, September 10, 1852; Issue 9275.

2) THOMPSON and LEE partnership dissolved

The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), Monday, September 8, 1862; Issue 7615

and also
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Monday, September 8, 1862; Issue 4548

and also
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, September 12, 1862; Issue 9794


3) Double wedding of EDT's daughters:
Mary Ann THOMPSON to Thomas Smith HENZELL, master mariner and shipowner and inventor. (You may like to add the Ann Henzell, the Mary Henzell  and the Thomas Fielden to your list of ships) and
Jane THOMPSON to James Bolton ROBERTSON, commercial traveller

The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, December 14, 1849; Issue 9132

Cheers,
Westoe