EDWARDS in West Sussex

[frenchie]

To Valda and Sillgen, Sorry I replied to your last e-mail before seeing the previous. I am absolutely amazed on the info. No wonder I could not find the family, but where on earth did BISHOP come from. Mary Ann was deaf and dumb, I wonder if the communication got all mixed up when she was asked for the details of the family. Give me a couple of hrs. to digest the info. and I will reply again.
Tom.

[sillgen]

Tom
In your pm to me you say that in 1901 "James, Wife and son Ernest were living at New Houses, Cudham, Kent."
That record quite clearly gives his name as William James Edwards, cowman on farm age 28 born in Horsham.  That is not near Cold Waltham.  Where did you find that information?  How do you know his mother was Mary Ann?
Can you give us your route from known facts back to there?
Andrea

[frenchie]

Andrea:  James William EDWARDS married Esther MAY in Greenhithe 3 Jun 1899, no father listed. In1901 census he gives his name as William Jas(James) and until he died he used this format. In this census he gives his place of birth as Horsham. No EDWARDS births for Horsham in 1873 but thanks to help from WSRO found that on16 Oct 1873 at Coldwaltham to mother Mary Ann,  James William Edwards was born. On 18 Jan 1874 he was baptised as William James and on his headstone is James William . Why he adopted a change of name after marriage was maybe because his father in law was James. Horsham  given as his place of birth?, either he was brought up there or the nearest big town to Coldwaltham so this why I need to find him in 1881 and 1891. Valda has done much research on the family and I am extremely grateful but it is the name Bishop that is now causing the headache. In 1901 we find Mary Ann still single and dau.Fanny as born in Stopham. I have searched and so has WSRO (Stopham PR)but can't find a birth for Fanny. I see from the Bishop details that Mary A. was deaf and dumb from birth and she gives her place of birth as Sutton(she was actually born Barlavington) but this is minor hiccup. Her age thro' all the census varies!! The similarity of the two people is uncanny. I expect the best solution for me would be to purchase the birth cert. for Fanny Bishop which will give me the maiden name of the mother. Your comments are welcome and thank you for taking such an interest in my problem.
Tom.

[Valda]

There is no issue with the surname Edwards. It has nothing to do with Mary Ann being deaf and dumb. The children were illegitimate and their births were registered in the surname of their mother apart from Fanny (if this is the right certificate) where Mary Ann bluffed it out with the registrar and had her 'legitimately' registered. I have and know of many examples (as late as the 1930s) where other mother's similarly had their children registered as legitimate offspring.

Fanny Bishop/Edwards has three different birthplaces on the censuses
Wisborough Green
Egdean
Stopham
I would think the most likely place for her baptism was Wisborough Green, but Petworth or Egdean are also candidates - Stopham seems a 1901 red herring.

James William is found on the 1881 census - birth Waltham (no James William Bishop birth registered in Sussex, only one William James Bishop and that was in Brighton). By the birthplaces of his siblings James was brought up in the Petworth area. There appear to be no other Mary Anns born Sutton of the same age who were deaf and dumb from birth.

Short of waiting for the release of the 1911 census to see what birthplace William James Edwards gives then, I'm not sure how proveable it is that his was the baptism in Cold Waltham. If both men were illegitimate the same problems apply - sometimes missing birth registrations, appearing in censuses in different surnames from the one used as an adult e.g. because mother's surname used on earlier censuses and then used father's when an adult, enumerated in a stepfather's surname but changed to either mother's surname or father's when adult. The surname you are enumerated in on a census does not mean that is the surname you were known as by your neighbours - the one you used on a daily basis.

1891 census RG12 832 folio 127
Egdean  Sussex
William Bishop  17 Egdean, Sussex,  Lodger Ag lab

Nobody with the surname Bishop born Egdean (or anywhere nearby) within 10 years of a circa 1873 birth date on the 1881 or 1901 censuses.

Regards

Valda

[sillgen]

You have put that very succinctly Valda, as always!
Andrea

[frenchie]

To Sillgen and Valda,  Valda many thanks for your comments, I do appreciate that surnames do get mixed up on the census as well as ages and places of birth. At the moment I am getting the Pr,s for Petworth and Wisborough Green checked for baptisms of Harry 1875, Mary A.1877 and Fanny Bishop 1879. This family have caused much agony and money.
When I get the answers I will be in touch.
Tom.

[Valda]

On reflection Stopham may not have been a red herring because presumably you asked for a search of the baptismal register for Fanny Edwards daughter of Mary Ann and not Fanny Bishop daughter of William and Mary Ann? Depending on the local vicar's knowledge of the married status of the couple the children could appear either as illegitimate Edwards or legitimate Bishops.

Regards

Valda

[frenchie]

Thank you Valda, I will wait now for the results of the search I requested this a.m. Whilst I am on, I did a search on the 1891 census but no obvious Bishop listed. I have tried all the name combination on EDWARDS in the past but no joy. The only other knowledge I have of James prior to 1901 is that the banns of his marriage were read out in Beddingham but the address just gives Beddingham and his son Ernest was also baptised at Beddingham 29 July1900. The birth cert. only gives Beddingham also. They moved to Cudham sometime from Jul 00 to Mar 01.
Were you happy with the reasoning of Horsham.
I will keep you informed.
Tom.

[Valda]

I think your obvious Bishop on the 1891 census is the one I already listed

1891 census RG12 832 folio 127
Egdean  Sussex
William Bishop  17 Egdean, Sussex,  Lodger Ag lab

as Egdean features for the two other possible older children on the 1891 census.

RG12 831 folio 27
3 Brewhurst Wisborough Green  Sussex 
Mary Ann Bishop 14 Egdean, Sussex,  General Servant 

and maybe this is Harry/Henry

RG12 832 folio 120
Amen Cottage Fittleworth  Sussex
Henry Edwards 17 Egdean, Sussex, Lodger  Ag lab

Egdean gets you nowhere on the 1901 census (or 1881) as a search criteria for Bishops or Edwards.

Horsham as a birthplace neither confirms the connection to the 1901 census or disproves it - just far enough away to be troublesome. The logical large place to have put as a birthplace would surely have been Petworth not Horsham.

Whose child is the Edwards senior grandchild on the 1871 census. Frederick born Sutton circa 1870. he seems to disappear after this census.

Births Jun 1870
Edwards  Frederick    Petworth  2b 305

Regards

Valda