British Subject West Indies

[coffeecup]

I have discovered that my ancestor George Daniels was born in the West Indies.

He is listed as a visitor age 20 in Liverpool on the 1851 census and that he is a British Subject.

In 1853 he marries Emma Alcock age 15 at St Nicholas Sutton St Helens and there is an entry in the christenings at the same church 3 days before the wedding for a George Daniels, but what stands out is in the notes it says ''an adult age 33''. I assume if this is him he was forced to do this in order to marry?

This record states that his father is George Daniels and mother Janel, but on his wedding certificate no father is named, and the age simply ''full''.No other clues. His occupation throughout his life was a slater.

I really have no idea how to find out anything more about this man's history and circumstances. His age varies depending on the census, and his place birth West Indies is not consistent, one census says America.

It would be really terrific to learn about this man and it was really exciting to find out that he came from the Caribbean, but after a few years of coming to a total halt with him, I'm now asking if anyone else has encountered such a problem and what steps I might take to find out more?

Many thanks.

[jorose]

On the christening record, is there any information on the occupation of his father? (in particular, any indication of a military background?)

Technically, the West Indies is considered part of 'the Americas', which might explain a birthplace 'America'.  'British Subject' indicates that his father, at least, was British - whether living in the West Indies or temporarily there (see: military).

Are you sure the mother's name was given as 'Janel'?  If that was definitely the spelling that might be a good place to start looking as it's an unusual name (possibly a varient on Janelle?).

Who is he visiting in 1851?  Who were the witnesses to the marriage?

On the baptism, particularly if the wedding was by banns - either he hadn't been christened as a child or wasn't sure if he had been or not, and they decided to make things official just in case.

 Whether it was forced, or a gesture towards his wife's family who may have been more religious than his own, or out of a genuine wish to square things up with God before he got married will have to be a question lost to the mists of time.

Just for completeness, can you list what he gives as his birthplace in the different censuses? Is he consistantly listed as 'British Subject'?

[coffeecup]

Hello Jorose, I really appreciate your reply and your input. Thank you.

I didn't know that 'British Subject' could relate to his father, it never occured to me that there may have been a military connection. I know this was a time of particular importance for the British Empire and the abolishment of slavery, but it's all been guesswork as to why George left the Indies, if he came here alone, or who he might have been.

The only time the census lists him as a british subject is in 1851. He is at the home of an Irish family close to the docks in Liverpool, his port of entry perhaps? By the next census he is married of course, so I assumed didn't feel he needed to add that? I've searched the 1841 census and can't find him, so assume he must have entered the country a little later.

The witnesses at the marriage were Emma Alcock's (the brides) father and brother, she was only 15 so I assume would have needed his permission.

I haven't actually seen the baptism entry from an original copy. You have made me realise that it's important to see the actual entry as it was written, and then maybe solve the mystery 'l' on the end of the name Jane. I will have to see if I can obtain it. I'm wondering if he just made his father's name up for the church? It does sound rather that he got baptised as a condition of allowing him to marry as it's so very close to the wedding date.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by banns? Do you mean a Church license to marry?

I will have to check my records for the censuses, but I was keen to reply to you, however, I'm quite certain he places his birth as West Indies, (though this has been mistranscibed by ancestry as India, and East Indies), but it's clear enough on the originals. It's only much later in life that he says America. It's a pity he never said which Island.

I will gather up all I have found on him and post again. Many thanks indeed for your help. It really would be fantastic if I could place his birth and his parents.

[jorose]

If he was married in a church, it would either be by license, or by banns.  Banns required an announcement three Sundays in a row in the parish of marriage (plus the home parish of the bride/groom if different from the one they were getting married in), declaring that the bride/groom were intending to get married and giving time for anyone with a reason they shouldn't be married to come forward.  The actual marriage usually took place soon after the third set of banns.

A license was something you had to pay for, and allowed for a quick marriage without banns, or marriage outside your usual parish, etc.

[coffeecup]

Hi Jorose, thanks for clearing that up for me.

These are the censuses for George Daniels.

1851 2 Albert Rd Toxteth Liverpool
Alexander McDonald 36 head. occupation plasterer b. Scotland
Mary Ann Mc Donald 33 wife                                     b. Scotland
3 Children b Ireland
2 b. Liverpool
George Daniels visitor unmarried 28 slater (British Subject) b West Indies

1861 Moss Nook Sutton
George Daniels head 39 occupation slater bWest Indies
Emma Daniels   wife   23                             b St Helens
Lucy                  daug  6                              b Sutton
Katherine           daug 4                                   "

1871 Moss Nook Sutton
George Daniels head 40 occupation slater b East? Indies
Anna Daniels     wife 32                              b Lancs Sutton
Katherine          daug 13 scholar                      "         "
Agnes                daug  8    "                             "         "

(Lucy Daniels aged 16 domestic servant to Wood family of Oak Bank Newton-le-Willows)

1881 Moss Nook Sutton
George Daniels head 50 occupation slater b America
Emma                wife  43                             b Lancs St Helens
Joseph               son 9      scholar                     "           "
Emma                  daug        "                            "           "
James Reynon   son-in-law 24  labourers at    "            "
Kate    Reynon     daug       23  Rolling Mill        "           "

Next door
Edward Yates 30 & Lucy Yates 26 (George's daughter) & children.

By 1891 no records found for George & Emma Daniels.
(James 34 & Katherine Renyon 33 at 6 Moss Nook (Berrys La) and next door no4 Thomas 33 & Agnes Hawthorn 28, presumably George's daughter Agnes.)     

So you can see that the age of George is not consistent even though other details are consistent.

So any assistance, suggestions or infomation would be warmly welcomed. Thank you.

[coffeecup]

I've been able to take another look at the baptism record and found it was actually two days after the wedding on the 18th Oct 1853 at St Nicholas Sutton.

However, whether it is or isn't 'my' George, the mothers name is given as Janel and father George Daniels, labourer, Sutton, and I still find it an odd coincidence, especially the bit that says an adult aged 33.

Presumably some kind of record must have been kept of the BMD's and activities of British Subjects whilst abroad? Would they be held in the UK? Or in the country where they were registered? The West Indies covered a considerable number of Islands and George didn't specify, I'd really appreciate some advice, especially if anyone else has encounterd and overcome a similar problem please?