Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands

[JenClark]

Well that is wonderful Margaret, I agree that from the information you have it certainly looks like the 1861-1891 census returns in Achavrole & Balchrick for Alexander & Jane Sutherland are the right family 

So from the census returns it appears that your William had at least 4 sisters as below:

Children of Alexander Sutherland & Jane Sutherland (married 1852)
William Sutherland born abt 1854
Catherine Sutherland born abt 1857
Margaret Sutherland born abt 1860
Jamesina Sutherland born 4 Feb 1865 Upper Achavrole, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish
Johan Sutherland born 1 Feb 1867 Latheron parish

He also appears to have a niece named Jamesina Sutherland born abt 1884

In the absence of any brothers for William, perhaps Jamesina was an illegitimate child born to one of his sisters? Scotland's People have the birth of a Jamesina Sutherland in Latheron Parish in 1884, but she does not show in the Ancestry index so you would have to purchase the certificate on Scotland's People if you wish to find out who her mother was.

In answer to your query about Alexander being a journeyman shoemaker, it doesn't actually mean that he travelled, it is just the step between an apprentice shoemaker and a master shoemaker. You can read more about it in the below post:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=456410.0

Your challenge now is to find the death records for Alexander Sutherland and Jane/Jean Sutherland to confirm their parents, and mother's maiden names 

The anecdotal evidence certainly seems to suggest that Jane may be the daughter of David Sutherland & Margaret Sutherland (possible maiden name Gunn), and Alexander may be the son of John Sutherland & Catharine Sutherland (maiden name unknown). But from my experience the Sutherlands in this area can be very confusing and intertwined, especially with the Gunns, so I would tread carefully before accepting others research wholeheartedly, and always try to prove it yourself.

Where did you actually find the below reference?

Hi Jenny, also found this to confirm the parentage of John Sutherland (Uncle) "Donald Sutherland was the  twelfth child of David Sutherland ( abt 1798– 1876) and Margaret Gunn and was the brother of John Sutherland who  settled at Mt Grey Downs in New Zealand  Donald was born on 30th August 1835 at Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland  On his death certificate Donald's parents are given as David Sutherland (a cooper?) and Margaret Gunn ( nee Sutherland)" so infact we have two Uncles in NZ at the time.... Cheers Margaret

I haven't yet found a Donald Sutherland linked to this family in the census returns, but it is quite possible that he was elsewhere on census day.

From the 1861 & 1871 census returns David & Margaret Sutherland appear to have the below children:
Margaret Sutherland born abt 1828 Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish
Jamesina Sutherland born abt 1839 Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish
Mary Sutherland born abt 1842 Dunbeath Estate, Latheron parish

IF the 1851 census is correct we can also add:
Jane Sutherland born abt 1824 Latheron parish
John Sutherland born abt 1826 Latheron parish

If they indeed had 12 children, then there are many more to locate!

Scotland's People does show the below marriage:

David Sutherland & Margt Gunn 16 March 1821 Latheron parish

There are only 4 baptisms on Scotland's People for this couple between 1821 & 1851:
James Sutherland born 5 Sept 1830 Latheron son of David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn
Donald Sutherland born 30 Aug 1835 Latheron son of David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn
Jamima Henderson Sutherland born born 2 Jun 1839 Latheron dau of David Sutherland & Margt Gunn
Mary Sutherland born 19 Sept 1841 Latheron dau of David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn

These seem to match with the children in the census Jamesina/Jamima in abt 1839 and Mary in abt 1842, Donald and James don't however feature in the census return. If only we could find them in the 1841 census, that may give more clues.

Unfortunately the baptisms before 1830 don't show a mother's name so it is a bit harder to identify the earlier children born to David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn. There were several David Sutherland's having children in Latheron in this time period (married variously to: Anne Henderson, Catherine Campbell, Catherine Taylor, Christian Mcbeath, Esther Sutherland, Hannah Sutherland [these ones are actually related to me ], Helen Dunbar, Isabella Sutherland, Jane Ross, Johanna Campbell, May Bruce, & Margaret Macalister). Having said that, there are a few baptisms that seem to match the census returns:

Jane Sutherland born 19 Nov 1823 Latheron, daughter of David Sutherland
John Sutherland born 11 Nov 1825 Latheron, son of David Sutherland
Margaret Sutherland born 10 Jan 1828 Latheron, daughter of David Sutherland

There are 9 other baptisms with a father David Sutherland who may be siblings...or may not be

To help sort out my Sutherlands, I spend many hours at New Register House in Edinburgh pouring through the post 1855 death records to see if I could find matching parents...but even that can be fraught with danger as there are many examples couples with exactly the same names, having children in the same town, around the same time 

Hence the frustration experienced when researching Sutherlands 

Jenny

[JenClark]

It looks like Margaret Sutherland (nee Gunn) died in 1879.

On Scotland's People she is recorded under both Gunn & Sutherland...and her mother appears to be another Sutherland...so your Sutherland tree grows again 

SUTHERLAND
MARGARET
80yrs
SUTHERLAND (Mother's maiden name)
1879
038/ 54
Latheron

GUNN
MARGARET
80yrs
SUTHERLAND (Mother's maiden name)
1879
038/ 54
Latheron

David Sutherland appears to have died in 1876...his mother's maiden name is not given in the index in Scotland's People

SUTHERLAND
DAVID
78yrs
1876
038/ 98
Latheron

There are a couple of possibilities for Jane Sutherland's death between the 1881 and 1891 census', the most likely being the first. Unfortunately her mother's maiden name is not given in the index.

SUTHERLAND
JANE
60yrs
1884
038/ 57
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
JANE
64yrs
1886
038/ 37
Latheron

Alexander Sutherland is a bit harder....there are a few possibilities. I've put the one I think the most likely at the top.

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
80yrs
1900
038/ 13
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
76yrs
1895
038/ 39
Latheron

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
70yrs
1894
038/ 85
Latheron

Good luck 

I'll be very interested to know how you get on

Jenny

[Forfarian]

Very true Forfarian, Scotland's People is the only place with a complete index for births post 1855 and the actual certificates of course 

The challenge is sorting out which certificate to purchase when one has a very common name....for example there are 12 Margaret Sutherland's born in Latheron parish, Caithness between 1859 & 1861...one of them is hopefully the daughter of Alexander & Jane Sutherland....but which one? Sadly no Margaret Sutherland births in this time period feature in the indexes on Ancestry or Family Search, just Johan who was born in 1867.

See the attached screenshot from the IGI on FamilySearch.

If you sort them in order of birth, it whould help to home in on the one you want on SP.

[JenClark]

Brilliant, such a help Forfarian 

I didn't know you could search the IGI like that!

From the list you can easily see the right one....

Margaret Sutherland
02 NOV 1859
Achavroul Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Father Alexander Sutherland
Mother Jean Sutherland

and her siblings:

Catharine Sutherland
25 OCT 1855
Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Father Alexander Sutherland
Mother Jane Sutherland

Jamesina Sutherland
04 FEB 1865
Upper Achavroal Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Father Alexander Sutherland
Mother Jane Sutherland

Interestingly Johan doesn't seem to show...but she is the only one on the Ancestry index 

Jenny

[Forfarian]

Interestingly Johan doesn't seem to show...but she is the only one on the Ancestry index 

She did when I ran a search in the IGI for children of Alexander Sutherland and Jane Sutherland in Latheron from 1855 to 1874. That found Catharine, Margaret, Jamesina and Johan, but for some reason Johan was listed in the 'community indexed' results and the others in the 'community contributed' results.

Johan is listed in the IGI, born 1 February 1867, and there are two births of Johan Sutherlands in Latheron in 1867. As the other one was born in January, your one will be the one reference no 20 in the SP births for Latheron in 1867.

The IGI is a great tool if you are looking for births 1855 to 1874, but it stops at 1874, apart from some, but not all, births in 1881 and 1891.

It can be useful for pre-1855 baptisms, but it is not complete - some parishes' records are missing or only partly indexed - and the 'contributed' section contains some (dis)information that is every bit as dubious as the 'information' on Ancestry, so it needs to be used with care and never relied on to be 100% correct. As pre-1855 baptisms are indexed on SP using both parents' names (where this information exists) and access to the indexes is free, there is no good reason to use any other index when looking for events before 1855.

And there is no good reason at all to use Ancestry, because as you have just found their indexes are incomplete.

[JenClark]

Thanks Forfarian 

I never go anywhere other than Scotland's People for pre-1855 events, but now I know there is 'another tool in the tool belt' so to speak for events between 1855 & 1874 

[mweston]

Hi Jenny and Forfarian, ok have spent the morning on Scotlands People and have the information, you were spot on Jenny, everything matches.. only 1 was a second option here is what I found (I tried to attach but files too big)

Death

Jane Sutherland (1884 038/57)
(married Alexander Sutherland Crofter & Shoemaker)
August second 1884
Upper Achavroul Dunbeath
60 years of age
Father:  David Sutherland (Crofter & Fisherman) (Deceased)
Mother: Margaret Sutherland M.S. Gunn (Deceased)
Cause:  Phithisis
Informant: Alexander Sutherland (Widower)


Alexander Sutherland (1895 138/39)
Pauper (formerly a Crofter and Shoemaker)
(Widower of Jane Sutherland)
May Nineteenth 1895
Upper Achavroul, Dunbeath
76 Years of age
Father:  John Sutherland (Crofter and Chelsea Pensioner) (Deceased)
Mother: Catherine Sutherland previously ? Sutherland (Deceased)
Cause:  Influenza 9 days
Informant: G Cormack (son-in-law)

David Sutherland (1876 038/98)
Crofter & Fisherman
Married to Margaret Gunn
July thirtyfirst 1876
Torbey, Dunbeath Parish of Latheron
78 years of age
Father: John Sutherland (Crofter & Woollen Weaver) (Deceased)
Mother: Margaret Sutherland M.S. Bain (Deceased)
Cause:  (Supposed) Disease of Heart 3 Years No Medical Attendant
Informant: Alex Sutherland (son-in-law)Upper Achavroul Dunbeath


Margaret Sutherland (1879 038/54) 
Widow of David Sutherland Crofter & Fisherman
Sixteenth of May 1879
Torbey Dunbeath
80 years of age
Cause: Bedrid for 20 years Debility from Age Gradual no regular medical attendant
Informant:  Donal ? Nephew Boulglass, Latheron Wheel

You were right about the script, very hard to read.  Now to find John Sutherland and Catherine.  It seems John was a Chelsea Pensioner Guard and there is a John Sutherland from Latheron on Ancestry so more work to do.  If you would like copies of these certificates I'm happy to send to you for future reference, seems this line links up with quite a few especially the Bain line.  Many thanks again I really appreciate your help.   If you need anything here in Australia, please don't hesitate to ask.  Cheers Margaret
 

[JenClark]

Well, that is absolutely wonderful news Margaret 

Now you have confirmation that Jane Sutherland's parents were indeed David Sutherland & Margaret Gunn, and that Alexander Sutherland's parents were John Sutherland & Catherine Sutherland. It also confirms that all the census returns were correct

I am going to send you a PM with my e-mail so that you can e-mail the certificates to me. I might be able to help with reading the entries...you never know.

Fingers crossed that Catherine Sutherland lived past 1855 so that you can get some more details for her, though from the census returns it looks like John Sutherland died well before 1855...so you will struggle there. Not many burials are recorded for this part of the country pre-registration. His being a Chelsea Pensioner might help you find more about him though, if you can track down his service record.

Good luck!

Jenny

P.S. I am in Australia too, so I am all good there 

[Forfarian]

mweston, why not post images of the bits you can't read, and see if some of us can decipher them?