Missing in 1871 census

[DS]

Hi Jayne

The Bagshaws live next door at number 12 Chesnut Street in 1871. I am convinced that this is your Samuel and Alfred.  From the reference which I gave, you need to page through until you find Samuel and Alfred. On the index it implies that they have parents called Robert and Alice but that is an error. Honestly !

The other one that you mention does look appealing but Samuel was not born in Astley (he was born in Manchester) and this Sarah is four years younger than your Samuel’s wife and she is from a different place.

I thought it said “Butler” as well and I wondered if that might be the reason why John (and Elizabeth) was not at home.  He may have been somewhere else doing his job ?

Yes. it was the middle of the night and we had just got back from a New Years Eve party at a friend’s house.  It was indeed a good one but shortly after midnight we were all assembled in a circle with arms linked and crossed and we began to sing “Should old acquaintance...etc” when the one and only Scottish person present issued a stern admonishment to us all for doing it wrong. Arms linked but uncrossed for the first verse then crossed arms for the second verse, we were instructed.

OK so we start again with linked and uncrossed arms with everyone singing “Should old acquaintance...etc”.  At the end of the first verse we all crossed arms and the second verse begins with the one Scottish person uttering some words that nobody else knew so the rest of us accompanied her with “la la la la, la la la la, etc” until the last line when all the English people dropped the “la la la etc” and reverted to spoken word in a crescendo of “For the sake of Auld Langs Syne”.

That’s when the trouble really started. After singing those very words every year for as long as any of us could remember we were severely admonished again because there is (apparently) no “the sake of” in the correct lyrics.

We need to be better prepared for next New Year’s Eve (optimistically assuming that we will still be around and invited again!). So any help that you can offer in this respect will be appreciated.

All that drivel was really just to draw your attention away from the fact that I have not found John and Elizabeth but I will have another look later.

DS

[JayneA]

Hi DS,

Now I get it! I looked again and I am amazed how the heck you found it, I agree with you, it makes sense and I can clearly see their occupations on this one too.

I was giggling my head off about the Auld Lang Syne, you should 'Google' the words and next year tell her which way it should be sung, I am sure Andy Williams always sang "For the sake of Auld Lang Syne" on his New Years Eve show many moons ago. There is always one isn't there? Maybe you should have sang "Ye canna shove your Granny off a Bus" and see what she had to say about that too!

Thanks for all your help DS, you are an absolute MARVEL.

If I don't get back to you for a while, it will be because it's bedtime soon for me, late one last night.

Regards

Jayne

[DS]

Jayne

When I read your last message, in the context of New Year and Scotland etc I mistakenly assumed that you had referred to Andy Stewart. As a result I have been singing about a Scottish soldier who wandered far away for the last hour or so. So let that be a lesson that you should not make assumptions without double checking. The consequences can be terrible.
                                                       
I think that this marriage might be relevant

1874 Manchester OND quarter 8d 447

Samuel Richard Newton
Sarah Elizabeth Tapp

On the 1861 census (RG9/2972 Folio 42 Page 30) guess who lives at number 15 Chesnut Street, Cheetham, just across the street from Samuel ?

Would I be right to assume (double checking !) that you know all about Alfred after 1881 ?

DS

[DS]

Jayne

  Found John and Elizabeth in 1871 

RG10/4046 Folio 98 Page 12

Not easy to find because the index has his age as 27. However, inspection of the original clearly shows it as 47.  He is the Steward of the Cheapside "Rivers Club" and Elizabeth is the Housekeeper of the same. There are several other employees listed. This occupation seems to be in keeping with his previous role (if we have deciphered it correctly).

DS

[JayneA]

Hi DS,

I should have said Andy Stewart, you are right, but it was many moons ago, so I forgive myself for my blunder, that and having a 'BLONDE MOMENT' (Having a few of them lately, most recent one involved a big building my car and my right foot thinking it was on the brake and not the accelerator!)

I will check on the details and get back to you, you are probably asleep now so I can have a good old gander.

Sleep well

Jayne

[JayneA]

Dear Inspector Clousseau,

Everyday you amaze me, I took a while and found them, 'The TAPPS', so Samuel married his childhood sweetheart, that made me smile.

At the risk of sounding very ignorant...... How do you find the marriage details so well, I check on BMD and I have never been able to find anything out, I looked up the marriage for John and Elizabeth, but I couldn't see her name anywhere, is there a special website you check on for the details? Or is there an easier way that I am trying for details at the moment, I would love to be able to find all these things out, once you have pointed me in the right direction I can fathom it out, but I would never think logically the way you have in all this.

On the 1871 were you found John and Elizabeth, do you think it could also say "Princes Club" that was how I read it initially, then I looked and it also looks like Rivers too. so he probably was a Butler at some stage aswell.

With Alfreds' details, He was a Metal Agent I have them on the 1891, he Married Mary Agnes Davies from Tredegar/Bedwelty Monmouthshire, they had two children (possibly three, Dad seems to think they had a son who died very young) Marion and Elizabeth Rose (my Grandmother)

Alfred died and I found Mary Agnes in the IOM with the girls(she either Ran or owned an Hotel in Onchan), she later came to live back in Liverpool and is buried in Huyton Liverpool in the same grave as John Gray, Elizabeth Newton Kathleen Gray (their daughter/my aunt) and Mary Agnes Gray (nee Davies)

Thanks once again for helping me, I think you should do this full time you are so good.

Jayne

[DS]

Gday Jayne.

I see where you are coming from with the Inspector Clouseau comparison. He too was a bit of a buffoon who only solved his cases by accident and good fortune.
                                                     
BMD information is available from various places but probably the two most widely used sources at present are FreeBMD and the Complete Indexes which are available on Ancestry.

On the Ancestry “Home” page there is a line beneath the search box which says “Go directly to UK, Births, Marriages and Death records” and on the main “Search” page, over on the right, there is an option “England & Wales, BMD Index”.  Select one of these two before you enter any search criteria (rather than going via the route on the left hand side of a page after you have got some search results). The page which you should arrive at gives three main options. At the top are the complete GRO indexes which you can search quarter by quarter for particular names. At the bottom are the more recent GRO indexes and in the middle are the partial indexes which are basically a copy of FreeBMD but not always as up to date.

You can also get to the page via this link before you login to Ancestry if you wish.

http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx

Most of your stuff is actually on FreeBMD but it is usually a good idea to also check on the full indexes to make sure that there is not another possible event which has not yet reached FreeBMD. You can check on FreeBMD to ascertain how complete the records are for particular years by looking at the Coverage Charts in the information section.

I tried to insert a link for FreeBMD but it does not work properly. So, if you are not already familiar with it, just type FreeBMD into a search engine and select it from there.

I hope that you can make some sense out of this.

DS

[JayneA]

Hi DS,

I think you are a lot smarter than 'Clousseau' myself, I am looking on the 1851 at this moment for Elizabeth and Samuel, however, I have just had a thought.......

Maybe Elizabeth was unmarried when she had Samuel and John adopted him? Therefore she might show up under her Maiden name. What do you think?

I will continue looking now.

Jayne

[DS]

Jayne

For stuff prior to 1837 the first port of call is probably

http://www.familysearch.org/

There are also localised parish record sites (with varying degrees of usefulness). Here is a good starting point to find some of them

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/

The John Newton that you already found in 1851 (HO107/2232 Folio 320 Page 18) working as a house servant in Cheetham looks remarkably like your man. He is the right age from the right birth place with the right sort of occupation in the correct location. However Samuel was born in 1848 and he was registered as Samuel Richard Newton which suggests that John ought to be with a wife and Samuel on the 1851. I have looked for an Elizabeth (who matches) with a son called Samuel but I have not been able to find one.

I did find a possible Samuel living with an aunt and uncle at HO107/2162 Folio 262 Page 6 but I think that this is probably clutching at straws and I could still not find a suitable Elizabeth anywhere.

I have not found the marriage of John and Elizabeth. There are numerous possibilities but no cast iron certainty. Obtaining the birth certificate of Alfred or Samuel would give you her maiden name.

Will keep looking later on after some sleep.

DS