Can't find Isabella Turner!!

[emarbe]

I have been looking for information on John Bryden (born 1818 Johnstone) and Isabella Turner (born about 1815 Lockerbie).

I found their marriage in 1842 in England together with English census returns for 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901, but I have looked on the England 1841 and they are not there, so assumed they must still be in Scotland but can't find anything that might be them on the Dumfries 1841 census, in fact there are no Turners in Lockerbie.
I looked on the IGI for Isabella's birth but there's nothing there.

Can any kind person help me out please?.

Mike
 

[hume]

Have you seen this one:

• ISOBEL TURNER
  Christening: 23 OCT 1814   Dryfesdale, Dumfries, Scotland
  Parents: WILLIAM TURNER & MARGARET REID

Going by Google searches, Dryfesdale is either in or close to Lockerbie. The only one I can find for John is submitted but here it is:

• JOHN BRYDEN
  Birth:  13 JUL 1818   Johnstone Parish, Dumfries, Scotland
  Parents: WILLIAM BRYDEN and GRIZEL THORNBURN

Added: If John's parents are correct, this is his mother in 1841 Johnstone.

Address: Hartfield, Johnstone
Grizel, 60, householder, Dumfries-shire
Jean, 25, Domestic Servant, "
William, 1, - , "

 

[emarbe]

Hi Hume24

Thanks for the quick response.
The John is the correct one, but I saw the Dryfesdale entry for Isabella and it didn't seem right, why would she say she was born in Lockerbie, after all Johnstone is close to Lockerbie too, although I must admit things weren't quite as straightforward then as we would like them to be.

I'm a bit confused on this one because I would have thought that as they married in London in June 1842, they would have still been in Scotland for the 1841 census, but they don't seem to be.

Again, many thanks.

Mike

[Reiver]

I think I'm correct in saying that Lockerbie is not itself a parish.  Lockerbie is in the parish of Drfyfesdale.  If it fits other info you have it looks as though the Isobel Turner christening in Dryfesdale could well be yours.

A general question.
Are the 1960 Memorial Inscriptions done by Gilchrist et al still on open shelves at Lockerbie and Annan libraries - as well as the Ewart in Dumfries of course?  Could anyone do a look up for William Turner and Margaret Reid for Mike?

Reiver

[emarbe]

Hello Reiver

I'll have to put my brain in gear before I write things in future, you are quite right about Lockerbie and it looks as though that birth entry is the one, but what baffles me is that I can't find either of them on the 1841 census, Scotland or England.

John Bryden is the one I am really interested in as I want to find his occupation prior to 1871 as that will tell me whether I have the right person or not. On his son's marriage certificate from 1865 he is down as being an Ironmonger, but the one I found who married (Isobel) Isabella Turner states a House Decorator from 1871 on, easy to change his occupation once he was settled in London though.

Thanks for your help

Mike

[Reiver]

Hi Mike
A little bit more but I'm not sure that it necessarily helps 

Checked Scotlands People.  Provides for a baptism in Johnstone to parents as given by hume24.
John's age would have been rounded down to 20 in 1841.  Found two 20yr old John Bryden's in Dumfriesshire via Scotlands People - one in Hutton & Corrie and the other in Dumfries (town).  I have a transcription of the former.  However the older people in the Household are a David and a Mary Bryden.  The same John seems to be in the same place in 1851.  I'm sure he isn't yours.  I couldn't read the image for the John in Dumfries so it could be him..

Found John and family at Upper Charlton Street in Marylebone in 1851.  He is 'still' a House Painter 

Do let us know how you get on.

Regards
Reiver

[emarbe]

Hi Reiver

Thank you for taking the time to look, I'll tell you what I know about John Bryden.

He fathered a son, William W, in 1839 in Johnstone. William lived with the mother and they moved to Liverpool where he married in 1865 and on his marriage certificate it states that John Bryden was an Ironmonger.

Although it's a virtually impossible task, I am trying to find out who John was and what happened to him and the only clue is his occupation. William must have had some contact with his father to know this.

The most likely candidate was born in Johnstone in 1818 to William and Grizel Bryden.
I have census information on the parents, but John seems to have disappeared off the radar.
The one in Hutton & Corrie is a possibility but going by Scottish naming patterns the one in Johnstone is more likely.

I have all the information on William and his mother but nothing on the father and in view of what the various census's say, the one in London must be the wrong one.

Many thanks for your interest.

Mike

[Gadget]

Hi Mike

I've had a look through the English 1841 census for your John. The nearest that I can find is this:

HO107/542/3 Folio 37 Page 18

Barton Upon Irwell, Eccles, Lancashire
Winton
John Bryden, 25-29, Blacksmith, born Scotland
(living on his own)

I then checked the 1851 to see if he came up but the only one that is showing is the one you have identified with Isabella in London. He's a housepainter. I'm not sure that a Blacksmith/Ironmonger would become a house painter but everything was possible in those day 

Gadget

[emarbe]

Hi Gadget

This man is proving very elusive, but the fact that the 1841 census doesn't show relationships is no help and the one in Hutton & Corrie could be the right one, but I am assuming that the father of William is a similar age to the mother and that he was from Johnstone, I could be completely wrong.

I think this is one of those many illegitimate births where finding both parents is impossible.
Originally I was going to get the birth certificate, but was then told that it wouldn't show any more detail about the father, in fact I was lucky I had the father's name as a lot of these births only show the mother. The other annoying thing is that the Kirk Sessions for Johnstone at this time have been either lost or destroyed, there was a distinct possibility that the parents would have been listed.

Many thanks for taking an interest, I'll have to see if there are any other alternatives before I give up the search.

Mike