Author Topic: Putting Names with Ap or Verch into tree  (Read 6678 times)

Offline jacko-to

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Putting Names with Ap or Verch into tree
« on: Tuesday 23 January 07 14:07 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone advise the best way to put my Welsh rellies onto my tree programme.

For instance I have a Richard ap Robert John married to Gaenor verch Huw Dafydd.

Should I be putting the Ap Robert John and Verch Huw Dafydd in the surname section or the Ap and Verch in the middle name or first name?

Have been doing this for a while now and am only just getting to grips with the patronymics side of things.

Thanks in advance.

Angie

Rea - Ireland & Liverpool
Dawson- Cornwall & Liverpool
Hall - Preston & Liverpool
Delaney - Dublin & Liverpool
Morris/Jones/Parry/Prees - Llanberis
Cray - County Clare & Liverpool
Gillespie - Belfast & Liverpool
Brown/Little - Newry

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline wrjones

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Re: Putting Names with Ap or Verch into tree
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 14:37 GMT (UK) »
This may provide an answer;
http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/faq/index.htm#c01

Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
Jones, Griffiths. Stephens, Parry, Gabriel, Conway, Hughes, Evans, Roberts, Lea, Hanmer. Peake, Edwards. Newnes, Davies. Thomas. "Blythin".
All North Wales.
Conway, Durber, Cartlidge, Lovatt, Bebington. Brindley, Sankey, Brunt. Dean. Clewes. Rhodes. Mountford,Walker,Bache, "Gibbons"Hood. Taylor
All Stoke-on-Trent.
Francis - Nantwich Cheshire.
Dennell - Cheshire/Staffordshire.
Talbot-Shropshire
Census Information Is Crown Copyright,from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline D ap D

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Re: Putting Names with Ap or Verch into tree
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 14:52 GMT (UK) »
to be absolutely correct, the "ap Robert John" or "Ferch/verch Huw Dafydd" part is not strictly speaking the surname. Surnames did not exist then, and the "ap" part should also have been carried on to the seventh generation!

However, in the absence of a family tree programme that sees to this matter properly, I have taken the whole "ap" or "ferch" part as the surname.

One of mine, Jane, was born illegitimately to Anne Morris, but the father was known, and his name was John Williams, so Jane got the name "Jane Morris verch John Williams". I've entered the Jane Morris as the first names and "Verch John Williams" as the surname.

Hope this helps.

D
Stuck with:
William Williams of Llanllyfni
John Jones in Llanelli
Evan Evans in Caio
David Davies of Llansanffraid
Evans: Caio/Carms
Jones: CDG, DEN

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Nor do I think that any other nation than this of Wales, or any other tongue, whatever may hereafter come to pass, shall on the day of the great reckoning before the Most High Judge, answer for this corner of the earth": The Old Man of Pencader to Henry II

Offline Gadget

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Re: Putting Names with Ap or Verch into tree
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 15:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I've just checked what I didwith mine and found that I've put the whole name in as a first name. This has carried through to my single line trees on my website which have a mixture of true patronymic, intermediate (when the ap/fch was dropped) and full surname. See, as an example

http://some-ancestors.rootschat.net/html/ellis_line_contd.html

Gadget
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Offline Taffy Lee

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Re: Putting Names with Ap or Verch into tree
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 15:38 GMT (UK) »
I agree with the previous poster - it's a square peg and a round hole.

I suppose there's a temptation to liken it with the Irish and Scottish Mc, Mac and O'.  The difference with these is that they were almost treated like modern surnames - with the name being passed down unchanged through many generations.

The Welsh patronymic, however, will change from generation to generation (unless son's name = father's name of course).

If you were to put "ap Robert John" or even "Robert John" as a surname in your software, I'm guessing that it will default to that surname for any children or fathers you create in the tree.  Also, if you were to show names in the 'surname, forename' format, it would look a bit silly.
Putting the entire name in as a forename is probably a better option - unless your software then tries to group all relatives with an empty surname together.

Either option will cause problems for any functionality your software may have to group families together.

One idea (ok, perhaps not a good one), would be to take the earliest person on each line and derive a surname from their forename - e.g. if Robert is the earliest relative on a line, then you could introduce Probert as a dummy surname for that line.  You would then put the full patronymic name in the forename field.  This would then allow you to group families together.  You just have to remember that this surname is something you've made up, rather than being historical fact.

Lee

p.s. Remember that if the fathers name begins with a vowel, then you should use "ab" instead of "ap", e.g. Meilir ab Irfon, Ifan ab Owen etc.

p.p.s. Remember that Welsh vowels are a,e,i,o,u,w,y.

Offline jacko-to

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Re: Putting Names with Ap or Verch into tree
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 16:18 GMT (UK) »
Thanks everyone for your input.

I'm using family tree maker at home so I'll try using just the forename on that and see what happens - I know on a couple I've already done where the patronymics had been fazed out some of the children are using different names -  of my jones girls is an Owen and one of the boys although baptised Jones uses a Morris surname (his grandads) and I've been able to edit them in.

I try to follow up on GenesReunited though and a surname is required so I'll compromise and put the verch/ap or ab in the surname part and see what happens - hopefully I should be able to edit the childrens names in that too.

Thanks once again for coming to my rescue - am hoping to get over to Llanberis when the weather is better as I've just discovered that one of the older cottages some of my family were born and raised in is still there - Llwyn Bedw, apparently one of the oldest in the village - it's been a long time since I've been into Wales and am really looking forward to it.

Angie

Rea - Ireland & Liverpool
Dawson- Cornwall & Liverpool
Hall - Preston & Liverpool
Delaney - Dublin & Liverpool
Morris/Jones/Parry/Prees - Llanberis
Cray - County Clare & Liverpool
Gillespie - Belfast & Liverpool
Brown/Little - Newry

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk