Marriage Lookup please . Hardy 1891-1895 My major brickwall !!

[JeannieR]

Hi There.........

As you can see , I am not a beginner , but this is certainly my major brickwall.......cannot make a start on my grandfathers family at all...........

On the 1901 census living at 23 , York Road , Shirley , Southampton

are:-

Albert Hardy/ 30 / Manager in mineral water factory / born Freemantle

Caroline J Hardy / 29 / born Canterbury
Ethel A Hardy / 5 / born Surrey
Albert C Hardy / 4 / born Surrey

Both childrens births were registered at St Saviour , Southwark
I understand their mothers maiden name was Knell or Nell

On the 1891 census , both Caroline and Albert E Hardy are single servants in Hampshire........

I really need to prove that they actually married . I feel certain this man is my grandfather , but on the 1915 marriage certificate to my grandmother , he states he is a batchelor , aged 44 . His father was also called Albert Edward Hardy ........

I am beginning to feel he was a bigamist . I have found Caroline Hardy's death in 1919 and my grandad died in 1923 aged 52

Any opinions , suggestions , really welcome , as this is the only part of my family tree , I really can't fathom

Many Thanks

JeannieR

[lizdb]

A few thoughts that may or may not be of any help.

Forgetting this family to start with, and concentrating on proven facts - your grandad was Albert Edward Hardy, who married your grandmother (name?) in 1915, had child(ren) including presumably your mother or father, and then died in 1923. When he married in 1915 he stated he was 44, a bachelor, and had a father Albert Edward. Was this marraige in Leeds or hampshire? Is this all correct?

So, firstly have you got his death cert? Presumably it is the one in JAn/Feb/MAr 1923 in Leeds area, ref 9b 456. So he was in Leeds 8 years after his marriage.
Have you looked for a will? If he did have an earlier family this may give clues as he may have made provision for them.

If his age on marriage cert was correct, then he would have been born about 1871, and would have been about 10 on 1881 census. A quick look reveals that the only Albert with a dad also ALbert on that census, is actually the one born Freemantle (though there are a coulpe of Albert H's with dad Albert)
tHis one in 1881 is living with dad ALbert, mum Caroline (bn Littlehampton) and brother Frederick.

Then I assume it is this same Freemantle one you have found in 1891.
Have you found Dad William and mum Caroline i n1891?

Then he has either married or lives with another Caroline in 1901 in Southampton and there are 2 children. Have you got birth certs for them? They could be Carolines from previous marriage - could be a co-incidence that she is a Hardy/ or they could all use same surname for convenience?

It certainly look slike this is your grandfather, but as to whether he is a bigamist that is only the case if he did marry the CAroline, and unless you can find a marriage that is unlikely. Perhaps getting a birth cert for either Ethel or Albert will clarify things - was Albert the father?

Think I have just rambled on and not really got anywhere!!!!!!!!!

[lizdb]

Another thought, have you got Carolines death cert? IF he was running two families, then he could well have registered the death.
And given that their mum was already dead, all the more reason that he might have made provison for ALbet and Ethel (and any subsequent children) in his will - IF they are his children

[lizdb]

In 1881 the onlypossible Caroline Knell, is a 16 year old , Caroline J Knell, a servant , born Canterbury, still living in canterbury as a Cook in the household of a Mr and Mrs kelly.

Looks like she either lied about her age to her employers and was younger than 16, or she lied about her age to Albert and was older than 29 in 1901!!

[JeannieR]

Thank You so much , Liz

This has been driving me mad for years !!

my grandfather , Albert Edward Hardy ,married my Gran , Sarah Morgan Branwood , at Liverpool on 20th October 1915 . He states he is a 44 year old batchelor , a barman ( he could have worked in a public house , run by a member of gran's family ) His father was named as Albert Edward Hardy , a railway goods foreman........

My mother was born , at Liverpool in 1917 , and my Uncle in 1916 . For what ever reason , they moved to Leeds , where Albert died in January 1923 age 52 .I do not think there will be a will , as they were  quite poor , according to my mum (now Deceased) but I will check this out

The family you have found , on the 1881 census , is the one that I think is mine ...... Caroline Hardy , nee Staines died in 1884 age 36
Jan qtr /South Stoneham / 2c 41
Albert Edward senior , subsequently remarried a Rose Wild in 1885, and went on to have another family , on the 1901 census , living at
68 , Paynes Road , Shirley . He is a railway porter !!

I have done this sooo....many times , and always come back to this family .......so it is good that you did ...I have researched them back to the late 1700's.....

The only reason I have doubt's , is because I started to build my tree on GenesReunited , and was contacted by someone who claimed my Albert Edward (11th Dec 1870 ) was HIS great grandfather.....but he has no idea what happened to him ..........

When I started researcching my family tree , I knew absolutely zilch about any branch , only my grandparents names ( all were dead , including my parents ) but I have got back to the 1740's , proven, with all . I actually met my mothers cousin , aged 83 , last year for the first time , and she confirmed such a lot for me , on the Hughes side , from Liverpool of all places ....

I think I will take your advice , and send for the Hardy childrens birth certificate , and possibly Carolines death certificate

I think it is me that is rambling now !!

My husband's opinion , is that if Albert and Caroline ,never married , and their relationship broke down , he would consider himself a batchelor . Typical

Thankyou so much for your imput , I really do appreciate it.

Kind Regards

JeannieR

[lizdb]

If Albert never married Caroline, then he would have been right in saying he was a bachelor at his marriage to Sarah Branwood.

The question I find myself asking is not so much 'did he marry Caroline' but rather 'why didnt he marry Caroline'

The evidence points to the fact that he didnt marry her - 1) You can find no marriage (I have looked under Knell for the appropiate years, I assume you have looked through all the Hardy's etc) and 2) he says he is a bachelor. Not proof I know, by a long way, marriage could be under a different name, he could be lying etc, but on the face of it he didnt marry her .

So - why didnt he marry her? In an era when 'living together' was not the norm, there was usually a reason why people in that situation didnt marry, and that reason was usually that one of them was already married! Now, if we are at this stage believing Albert when he says he is a bachelor, then it must be Caroline.

She does seem to be a bit of a mystery. If she was single in 1891, but with Albert, then what did happen between 1891 and 1901. Whatever it was it involved her going off to south London and having two children. And, whatever it was it did not involve her getting married, that is assuming her name was Knell, as there are no Caroline Knell marriages in those years.
The question is - did Albert go off there too? They are both back in Southampton in 1901.
The only records we have relating to any of them for those years available will be the birth certs of the 2 children. Whether they will shed any light I do not know, but again, after much rambling, I think sending for at least one of them may be the next step.

I do like a good mystery - but only when at the end of it all an answer is found!!!

[JeannieR]

Hi There.......

Just to let you know, that I sent for the death certificate of Caroline Hardy........She was definitely married to my grandad....so he was a bigamist !!

Caroline died age 47 in 1919 at 40 Shirley Park Road, Southampton . "Wife of Albert Edward Hardy, a ships pantryman, address unknown " which I think,confirms that she had been deserted.......

I also sent for the marriage certificate of his daughter by Caroline, Carrie Flora, who married in 1933. Father is Albert Edward Hardy, deceased. Ships Steward. Exactly what was on my own mothers, marriage certificate......

I just thought I would let you know the outcome......

Kind regards

JeannieR

[lizdb]

Thanks for letting me know.

But I am not 100% sure it proves they were married! Obviously she was deserted by Albert, and she called herself 'wife of Albert', and whoever registered the death knew her as Mrs Hardy whose hubby had deserted her. But was this just how she was known, for propriety's sake? Why cant a Marriage for Albert and Caroline be found?
i have a Jane Slater in my tree, her death cert says 'wife of Frederick Slater', but even after 20 years of searching and approaching it from all angles, we have never found either her marriage to Slater or the death or her first hubby, even though in intervening censuses she describes herself as a widow. our conclusion is simply that she never actualyy married Slater, but called themselves married. The reason being she was not free to marry because first hubby had not actually died, she had been deserted by him, but called herself a widow rather than an abandned wife.

I would still keep this one as a bit of a mystery at present! though it is beginning to piece together.

But i do still ask, if they were not legally married, then why not?

Did you ever get Ethel or Albert's birth cert.

Ohhh why did they make things soooooo complicated!

[lizdb]

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