Is this possible?

[delPiero]

Is this a possible match?

I am trying to locate a marriage certificate for my great great great grandparents. This is my first venture on to rootschat!!!!
The marriage is between Thomas Freestone ( or Thomas P Winterton Freestone) and Ann Fox.
I think I have found a possible match BUT the date of registration differs enormously.
The details are:
         Yr registn   Quarter   District      County

Thomas P Winterton   1854      OctNovDec   Leicester   Leicestershire
Freestone

Elizabeth Ann Fox   1882      OctNovDec   Leicester   Leicestershire

BOTH are recorded as being located in vol 7a page 478.

Can they be linked even though the registration date differs by nearly 30 years??

PS I think that Thomas Freestone died prior to 1854 and that before the 1851 census his wife remarried and was now Ann Cave.

Any advice much appreciated.

Many thanks,
Dennis Martin

[Valda]

Welcome to Rootschat.
If you think Thomas Freestone died before the 1851 census and his wife was remarried by the 1851 census then he cannot be the same man marrying in Leicester in 1854 to Martha Prichard. On the 1861 census there is a Thomas W. Freeston aged 28 born Leicester married to a Martha with children ages between 5 years and 3 months.

Perhaps you could tell us what you know of your Thomas Freestone so we can help look for information for you.

Regards

Valda

[avm228]

Hello Dennis,

Welcome to Rootschat!

I'm afraid I don't see how these individuals can have been party to the same marriage.  The images of the indexes (free on Ancestry.co.uk) show that there is no typo - they really are from the years they say they're from.

I'm confused by your statement that Thomas Freestone died before 1854.  Is this a different Thomas Freestone from the one who apparently married in 1854?

Anna

[delPiero]

Dear Valda and avm 228,
This is a combined reply. Thank you both very much for your help.
I will explain what I do know for “sure”.
First some background.
My mother spoke to family relations some years ago and recorded a big family tree. Her evidence was all anecdotal.
1.   Thomas Winterton Freestone born 1832 Leicester (died 1911, Auckland NZ)
Married Martha Pritchard (born 1834 in Wales, died 1915 in Auckland) on 28 Dec 1854 in Leicester.
2.   His father was Thomas Freestone (soldier), his mother Ann Fox.
3.   Her father was Richard Pritchard from Wales. There is then mention of a Josephine Amelia Pritchard from Wales (I have a very old photo of her) – my mother has recorded this person as Richard’s wife BUT that doesn’t tie up with the mother in law in the 1861 census having the Christian name Martha. So perhaps that (Josephine) is the name of Richard’s mother???!!

What have I been able to establish?
1.   A marriage certificate for Martha Prichard (note different spelling) and Thomas Winterton Freestone on 26 Dec 1854 in Leicester. Thomas is listed as 22years, Martha as 20 years. Martha’s father is listed as Richard Prichard, deceased.
Thomas’s father is listed as Thomas Winterton Freestone, deceased.
2.   A record of a Thomas P Winterton Freestone marriage, registered 1854, Oct/Nov/Dec, Leicester, Leicestershire – could this be the father finally registering his marriage from years before? But if so, where is his wife Ann Fox? Then I came across Elizabeth Ann Fox , marriage registered in 1882 – correlating to the same volume (7a) and page (478). Hence my question – is this a possible match even though the years are so different???
3.   The 1851 England census shows Thomas Freestone (aged 18yr) living  at 5 James St, the address showing later on his marriage certificate!!!!!
His mother is listed as Ann Cave, also having 2 sons, Henry Cave – 9yr and Charles Cave- 5yr. So Ann Freestone must have remarried – prior to 1842???
So Thomas Freestone senior “must” have died between 1832 (when Thomas the son was born} and 1842 (when his wife had a child surname Cave).
I did find a Thomas Freestone died in 1841, Oct/Nov/Dec in Melton, Mowbray, Leicestershire. Might be a match?

Thomas and Martha arrived in Auckland in 1874 with their large family. Which makes me a New Zealander!!!!!

Any help you can give me would be appreciated. I have recently taken out a year’s subscription to Ancestry.com.
Thank you for your interest thus far.
I have had zero luck so far with Martha Prichard's parents and would love to get more details about Thomas Freestones' parents. Thank you Valda for finding me the mother in law from the 1861 census. She is Martha Taylor, must have remarried from Martha Prichard.

[stuizzy]

Hello Dennis

How reliable is the info that Martha, Thomas' wife was from Wales? In the 1861 census that Valda mentioned, Martha is listed as being from Worcestershire with her mother from Kingston, Herefordshire.

In the 1851 census, in Black Friars, Leicester is a possible Martha Junior and her mother
Martha Pritchard Head widow 50   Kington, Herefordshire
Martha Pritchard Daur   S        17   St. Peter (?), Worcester
Ellen Tooman      Lodgers        21   Derbys
 HO107; Piece: 2090; Folio: 382; Page: 5

Also, I saw in the BMD there is a Martha Prichard and a Richard TAYLOR both marrying 4th quarter 1855 Leicester Vol 7a page 480

Looks promising for the mother-in-law's remarriage. That certificate would give her father's name.

Still doesn't help with Thomas though!

Isobel

[Valda]

Dennis sent me a pm to which I earlier replied, but since he has also given further information on this board, this is my pm since it may help others who are responding to the further information given.

Dennis

people don't register their marriages - officals do. In England in 1854 only two people could register a marriage (excepting Jewish and Quaker marriages) - An Anglican vicar by filling in the register at the time of the marriage and then forwarding the quarterly returns to the registrar, and the local registrar either doing the same at a local registry office or at a non-conformist church. The registrar would then forward the marriage returns from his district to the General Registry Office who would index them for the quarter they had occurred in.

Marriages Dec 1854 
Freestone  Thomas P Winterton    Leicester  7a 478   
Freestone  Thomas Winterton     Leicester  7a 478   
Prichard  Martha     Leicester  7a 478

The same marriage indexed twice in the GRO index, once with the initial P and once without. If an indexer wasn't sure of something on reading a certificate he had to index it twice in the GRO index to make sure at least one entry was correct. Same volume number, same page for both entries. There is one marriage certificate at this volume and page in the GRO quarterly returns which is the marriage that took place on 26th December.

1861 census RG9 2293 folio 63
2 James Street Leicester St Mary  Leicestershire   
Ann Cave  58  Leicestershire, Head  Widow Laundress
Henry Cave  21 Leicestershire, Son Sawyer
Charles Cave  14  Leicestershire,  Son Shoe finisher

Either of these two sons' birth certificates would give you a father's name and confirm their mother's maiden name and help you find their parent's marriage and the surname Ann married in. The 1871 census indicates that Thomas Freestone may have been known either as Winterton or Freestone.

1871 census RG10 3285 folio 85
6 Court Southgate Street Leicester St Mary  Leicestershire   
Thomas Winterton  37 St Margaret, Leicestershire, Head Married Turner & ?
Martha Winterton  34  Worcestershire,  Wife  Married
Allis Winterton 15  St Mary, Leicestershire,  Daughter  Shoe fitter
Thomas Winterton 13  St Martin, Leicestershire, Son  Warehouse boy
John Winterton  10  St Martin, Leicestershire,  Son Shoe
Hellen W Winterton 7 St Martin, Leicestershire, Daughter
Walter F Winterton  5  St Martin, Leicestershire, Son
Julia M Winterton 2  St Nicholas, Leicestershire, Daughter 
Florance Winterton 1mth  St Mary, Leicestershire,  Daughter 

You could request a look up on the Leicester board for a baptism of a Thomas Winterton or Thomas Freestone circa 1834 in Leicester (not all the church records are on the IGI) mother's name Ann. There is a burial for a Thomas Winterton in Leicester in 1833 but no-one with a surname Freestone (on the National burial index which has reasonable coverage of Leicester for this period).

1851 census HO107 2090 folio 382
Simpsons Yard Bow Bridge Black Friars  Leicestershire   
Martha Pritchard  50  Kington, Herefordshire,  Head  Widow Boot tucker?
Martha Pritchard 17  St Peter, Worcestershire, Daughter  ?
plus 1 lodger

Martha junior consistently gives her birthplace as Worcestershire not Wales.

This marriage will give Martha senior's father's details and her maiden name for a search in the Kington Herefordshire registers for her baptism.

Marriages Dec 1855 
PRICHARD  Martha     Leicester  7a 480   
TAYLOR  Richard     Leicester  7a 480

Burial April 1858 Welford Road Cemetery Leicester
Richard Taylor aged 52

Martha Pritchard was born circa 1800 so you would expect her first husband to be born around that time. Richard Pritchard's mother must have been born at the latest circa 1780. Any photograph which would have survived for her could only have been taken when she was an extremely old woman because of the date of the first photographs and more common usage of photographs for ordinary families would be at best 1860s/1870s.

Regards

Valda

[delPiero]

Dear All,
Thank you for the expert replies I have had. The chatroom has exceeded my expectations by miles!!!!!!! I never dreamed people would be so helpful. It's also been a good learning experience seeing professional in action.
Thank you all very much.
Regards,
delPiero (my favourite footballer)
alias Dennis Martin

LOOKUP NOW COMPLETE MANY THANKS