Thomas Dalziel

[MSTURMEY]

I'm looking for the birth date of my great great grandfather.
He was named Thomas Dalziel.   Think he was the illegitimate son of Mary - born about 1884.
He was married to Mary Bell.
On marriage certificate mother is listed as Mary Dalziel maried to Robert Stewart.
On Thomas death Certificate his father is named as William Dalziel and his mother Mary Dalziel.
Married 16.12.1870
died 24.10.1890
Think he was born in Lochmaben in Dumfrieshire.
Was married in Dennistoun in Glasgow
and died in Springburn, Glasgow.
He had a son named Robert Dalziel who was born in 1971 in Glasgow.
Can anyone out there help?
Thanks - MSTURMEY.

[Gadget]

Hello MSTurmey 

Welcome to Rootschat. I hope you will enjoy being a member and that we can help you.

I'm slightly confused about the dates that you give so I've checked his marriage certificate and it lists his father as Frank Dalziel and mother as Mary Dalziel, maiden surname (m.s.) Stewart. I think you might have read the Robert from Robert Bell, the father of Mary which is written below the m.s. Stewart. Also, it is  on Thomas death certificate that has a blank for father and mother is Mary Daziel married to Robert Stewart. Not sure where the William Daziel and Mary Daziel comes from.

Thomas was 22 when he married which gives a birthdate circa 1848. I'll see if I can find anything on a baptism.

Regards

Gadget

[Gadget]

Hi again

All the records - including the 1881 census suggest that he was born 1848-49 but nothing is coming up in Lochmaben for a Thomas with any surname. There is a possible Mary Ann Rogerson Daziel, bpt. Lochmaben 20 February 1831. Parents - James Dalziel and Margaret Rogerson. No Mary Stewarts.

From the 1881, his children would appear to be named and aged:

Robert - 9
Thomas - 8
Francis - 5
Jean - 3
Grace - 5 mths

The male names do tie in roughly with naming conventions but Jean seems not to (Mary Bell's mother was Grace)


Gadget

[Gadget]

I have found a 24 year old, unmarried Francis Dalziel in Lochmaben on the 1851.

840 Ed 6 Page 7 Lockerbie Road

John Dalziel, 50, labourer
Jennet Davidson, wife, 56
Francis, son, 24, labourer
Jannet, d, married,
Robert Carslyle, son (?grandson), 1,

All born Lochbaben

Gadget

[JustJean]

Hi

This one is doing my head in!!   Even though it appears that Lochmaben isn't strong in OPR births it's often possible to find the family groupings through the early census records.  Not sure how much of this you might already have.  While not finding any Thomas Dalziel or variations there is a very tempting Thomas S. Grierson with his Fraser grandparents in Lochmaben that fits all ways except for his surname    He's there in 1851 and he's there in 1861 and then I can't find him again.  There is definite strong ties to Lochmaben for this line though.  In 1881 when Thomas and Mary are found there with their family you'll also find Thomas's mum Mary with her hubbie Robert Stewart there.  You'll also find mum Mary's death in Lochmaben as well as the death of her mum there.  Btw....by my figuring Mary's mum is Janet/Jane mn McGeorge previously Dalziel widow of Fraser when she dies in 1887.  Pretty sure her birth is in Applegarth in 1792 per the IGI.  

So not sure what to make of the Thomas Grierson in Lochmaben.  It does seem that Dalziel is Mary's maiden name.....so maybe Thomas chose to change his name to that when he got old enough to go on his own?  Just speculating.....

Best wishes
Jean

[Gadget]

Have you got the same family as me Jean?

I have Mary Bell's Father Robert and Brother Robert with the family in 1881 and no sign of a Mary Stewart. What is the census reference?

Gadget

[JustJean]

Hi

Yup same family.  Didn't mean to infer that Mary was in the same household.  This is Mary Stewart mn Dalziel in 1881:

Templand Village, Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland
Source:   FHL Film 0224050     GROS Reference    Volume 840 ED 4  Pg 2
   
Robert STEWART, age 62 , b. Johnstone, Dumfries, Scotland, head, Gen, Lab.
Mary STEWART,  age 54, b. Dryfesdale, Dumfries, Scotland, wife
David JARDINE age 1, b. Maxwellton, Kirkcudbright, Scotland, Border

On the IGI you'll find a couple of births to Mary DALZELL and Robert STEWART that tie in with them.  I found the family on the 1861 census but think the daughter must have died as an infant.  They had a son Robert with them which tied in to the IGI birth of a Robert in 1858 in Lochmaben.

I think the info as stated on the Thomas's MC for his parents is not accurate or at least his mum's info is backwards.  The info given from the DC seems to work with Mary being married to Robert Stewart. 

Does this make sense?

Best wishes
Jean
   

[Gadget]

Thanks - yes found them later. I'm not sure where the William Daziel comes from though?
I've checked all the Thomas (any surname) births/baptisms in Lochmaben 1847- 49 (He seems consistent with his age) but nothing. However, there is the Francis Daziel on the 1851 and he does call a son Francis which seems to tie in with something - we know not what 

Just wonder if that Francis was a relation.

Gadget

[Gadget]

 

Think we might have a lead. I've got Mary and Robert on the 1861 in Lochmaben with a 2 year old son.

Templand Village - 840 Ed 4 page 14
Robert, 42, Stone quarrier, Johnstone
Mary, 32, Dryfesdale
Robert, s, 2, Lochmaben

Robert's birth (as Samuel,changed to Robert) March 1858 shows Mary as maiden surname Daziel, so this is obviously the family.

So it's a check on the marriage and the 1851 and Dryfesdale circa 1827-29

Gadget