Thomas Dalziel

[JustJean]

Hi there

This is a tough one that I think will never be completely solved.  There is no sign of your Thomas using the syrname Dalziel before his marriage.  He does however on every census after this always state his place of birth as Lochmaben.  As I previously pointed out.....there is a young fellow with the first name of Thomas and the correct age living with his grandparents (who just so happend to be Thomas Dalziel's grandparents!) in Lochmaben and stating he was born Lochmaben on the 1851 and 1861 census.  The only problem with him is that he is listed with the surname of GRIERSON.  I can't find him again after these two census records.  It was and continues to be my strong suspicion that this is really your Thomas......but absolutely no way of proving or disproving it conclusively!!!!  How very frustrating!!!! It's possible he was named for his father but chose to drop the name and use his mother's name when he came of age.

As for illegitimate births/christenings....they were recorded in the Old Parochial Registers right along with legitimate ones if they were recorded at all.  I suspect you will never find this record as it likely does not exist.  There are no other sources unless he was christened in a church other than Church of Scotland.

Sorry for not being able to assist further on this one!!!!!!

Best wishes
Jean

[MSTURMEY]

Thanks Jean, - Yes it is very frustrating.   I appreciate your help.   Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions once again.   
Sorry to be a thicko but you mentioned Thomas Grierson and his grandparents.
What do you call his grandparents?   You said that they were Thomas Dalziel's grandparents - how did you find this out?
Also in a previous reply from you, you stated (and I quote) "Thomas S Grierson with his Fraser grandparents in Lochmaben"    Are you saying that Thomas' grandparents were called Fraser?   And are these people Mary Dalziel's parents?   (Mary's married name Stewart )
Also to go back to this previous reply from you.   It's confusing having so many Mary's.   You say that Mary's death was in Lochmaben was well as the death of her mum.   Was Mary Stewart/Dalziel's mother called Mary Fraser?   and does that mean that Mary Stewart/Dalziel lived in Lochmaben area all her life and that her mother (who was also called Mary) lived there also.
I'm so mixed up because you go on to say that Mary's mum is Janet/Jane maiden name McGeorge previously Dalziel widow of Fraser when she dies in 1887.   
I'm all mixed up with my Dalziel's, McGeorge's and Frasers.
It's too late and I'm just getting all confused and mixed up.   I think I had better call it a night and go to bed.   It might be better if I start afresh in the morning.
Thank you for you patience.   This is what you get when a novice hits the site!!
Regards,
MSTURMEY.     

[Gadget]

Hi MS

Think you might be suffering from info overload 

Here's an answer to your McGeorge query.

Robert(38) and Mary (28) married in 8 May 1857 in Lochmaben. Her parents were Thomas Dalziell  (weaver, deceased) and Jane McGeorge - as you thought, Jean 

Gadget

There's a lot of information on the thread and it may be confusing because of all the postings but I think it might be worth reading it through again. Most of the questions you've asked are answered in the individual messages.

Regards

Gadget

[JustJean]

I'm trying honest..... but sometimes I even confuse myself    It's hard when women marry more than once and keep changing surnames!!

Ok....the Fraser people that Thomas Grierson is living with.  The woman is the real honest to goodness mother to Mary Dalziel.  The man is her second husband (assume it's the 2nd anyhow).   How do I know you ask???  Well....before I think I said " Mary's mum is Janet/Jane mn McGeorge previously Dalziel widow of Fraser when she dies in 1887.  Pretty sure her birth is in Applegarth in 1792 per the IGI. "  This means that if you run a death search on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk for a death in Lochmaben in 1887 and using the maiden name/married name search parameters you'll find this record.  You'll also learn the names of her parents and using those and a parent search on the IGI you'll find what fits to be her birth in Applegarth.....all of which ties in to her birth location on all the census records.  Her second husband FRASER was a soldier.  I wonder if it might be interesting to see if any records of him might be uncovered even though he is not related by blood.  I only found her as I learned her maiden name of McGEORGE from Mary's records so I just searched for her death and there she was right there in Lochmaben...so then I looked for her in the census under the FRASER name.  

Does this help?  Please keep asking and I'll keep trying !

Best wishes
Jean

[Gadget]

I'm just wondering if a diagram might help:

George McGeorge m 1783, Applegarth Mary Byers

        |
Jane McGeorge (b. 1792) m 1824, Applegarth (1) Thomas Dalziel (d after circa 1828 and before 1842)
                                      1842, Lochmaben(2) Thomas Frazer (a Chelsea pensioner)*
        |
Mary Dalziel (b.c. 1829)  m 1857, Lochmaben Robert Stewart

        |
Thomas Dalziel (b.c. 1848) m 1870, Dennistoun, Glasgow Mary Bell

* in the 1851 census Lochmaben 840 ED 5 p 23 , Jane and Thomas are shown with a 2 year old grandson, Thomas S Grierson.

Regards

Gadget                   

[Gadget]

...and look what I've just found:

1851 Census - 840 ED 1A Page 19

Templand, Lochmaben

Francis Grierson, 22, carpenter, b. Lochmaben

in the home of his sister, Elizabeth Bryuber (?), aged 31

It can only be conjecture but we now have a grandson, Thomas,  (right age) of Mary Dalziel's mother, Jane AND a Francis with the same surname.

I think this is as near as we can get to finding a father for Thomas.

Gadget

[MSTURMEY]

You folks are brilliant.
I hope that one day I shall be as adept at interpreting all this information.   I could jump for joy.   I'm so thrilled that after months of searching, things are beginning to come together.   Thank you all, Thank you very very much.   
I suppose it's a case of knowing where to look.

[MSTURMEY]

I promise - I'm almost there.
Just one point.
We've got Mary Dalziel as Thomas mother and she married Robert Stewart.
Right that's her out of the way.

Going on to this Francis Grierson.
Assuming that he is Thomas father.   Thomas takes his father's surname and as a child calls himself Thomas Grierson up to the time of his marriage when he reverts to his mother's name of Dalziel.
He lives with his grandparents as a child.   (e.g., Jane McGeorge then Dalziel then Fraser)   They are called Fraser.   Jane is the parent of Mary Dalziel who is Thomas mother.   I'm O.K. up to this point.

However, Gadgets last message.   Francis Grierson.   Assuming that he is Thomas' father.   He is living with his sister Elizabeth Bryuber.   Thomas isn't living with them.   He's living with his grandparents Jane and Thomas Fraser - according to the 1851 census.   Apart from the name Grierson, how does this tie in with my Thomas?   Is it just purely the name Grierson that causes us to think that he is Thomas' father?

I'm almost there.
Thanks again for your marvellous help with this one.  MSTURMEY

[Gadget]

Hi MS

As I said, the Francis Grierson is conjecture but as near as I can find.

If you remember that on Thomas's marriage certificate,  his father's names is entered as Francis Dalziel - who doesn't exist. I surmised at the time that Thomas's father might be a Francis and he had said 'Francis' to the registrar, who wrote in 'Francis Dalziel' as that was Thomas's surname. He also called one of his sons Francis. The same registrar entered Mary as Dalziel, M.S, Stewart, so there was obviously a confusion. Thomas may have been trying to hide his illegitimacy or the clerk got the information muddled.

It was common for illegitimate children to be 'known as' their biological father's name - Jane would no doubt have known. Later, he changed to his mother's surname, which was his 'legal' surname as Mary was unmarried at the time.

When we find a possible Thomas with his grandmother and listed as Grierson, I went to look for a Francis Grierson and found this one - the only one in the area and of an age (b.c. 1829).

We can't say for certain that this Francis Grierson is Thomas's father but we can hazzard a good guess.

If it was my tree, I would pencil Francis Grierson in as a strong possible but only that.

Regards

Gadget