Joseph L CARTER - St Albans and Stanstead (Abbotts)/St Margarets

[benzon]

Joseph Carter is my gt gt grandfather on one of my maternal lines but he seems to be a bit elusive !!  Census returns for 71 and 81 give his occupation as carpenter born St Albans c1833.  Might have a sighting for him on the 61 but lodger so cant prove anything.  Can't find a baptism or a marriage or anything obvious on the 41 and 51 census returns.  Believe his ?wife was probably Emily Flack b Stanstead but he disappears from the scene after 1881 whereupon Emily seems to have remarried a William Prior.  But cant find an appropriate death either ??  Have possible remarriage for Emily in West Ham RD in 1884 although she was living in the Stanstead Abbotts/Rye Park, Hoddesdon areas.

Anyone any clues.  Only getting back to 1871 is a bit tame these days !!!

Cheers
Denise

[CatOne]

He couldn't have changed his name for some reason could he??

Theres this marriage -
Joseph C Clay Dec 1866 Islington Vol 1b Page 439
On same page - Emily Flack or Sarah A Newell


See 1851 HO107/1713 Folio 249 Page 36 St Albans, Herts


IGI Familysearch site - Joseph Clay chr 05th May 1833 St Peters St Albans
Parents - Thomas Clay and Sarah

I've been looking for a remarriage for his mum to see if that could be the reason for the name change, but not found anything yet, may just be a red herring 

[benzon]

Thanks for your reply.

Looks very, very interesting.  My mum would have a fit though if it were proved that her maiden name wasn't really Carter especially as there is a rather large question mark on her maternal side as well !!

Everything on this seems to fit.  However, did you come to fathom this out?  I will dig out the 61 census entry again tomorrow and see where I found the Joseph Carter lodger.  I expect if Thomas Clay died shortly after his birth and his mother did remarry (hopefully a Carter) then he may well have considered him his father.  But why marry in the name of Clay and then adopt Carter.  My mind is working overtime.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers
Denise

Don't they make life difficult sometimes.

[CatOne]

Hi Denise,

I found this Joseph by chance, searching for Jos* , Keyword St Albans, b.c1833.

Looking for a Joseph and Emily or Sarah Clay on the 1871 census, I found only one Joseph and Emily Clay and they had children over the age of ten so were most likely married much earlier than 1866. And I found 3 Joseph and Sarah Clays, but they too had much older children.

Its strange to not be able to find someone on two censuses (unless they're gypsies, seamen, etc) someone on rootschat can usually uncover them!!  so thats what made me think of a possible name change.....

Of course this theory could be completely wrong! They do like to make thing difficult for us! 

Good Luck
Catherine 

[benzon]

Not much time today to delve this problem.  But may have found ?another red herring.

On the 61 census I found a William Clay Carter bc 1826.  Guess birthplace ?? - St Albans !!!!!!!!

Cheers
Denise

[first-things-first]

Hi

I have had a quick look on my 1841 index.

I have traced my family back to St. Albans in 1841 - no Joseph Carters - but maybe just coincidentally have a Henry Carter baptised 5th May 1833 St Peters, St. Albans (as were all the family). Maybe somehow related with the Carter name???

I looked at the 1861 census the lodger Joseph Carter is in Edmonton Middlesex. 1841 gives a Joseph Carter (no other family it seems) in Watford, Herts. Too far? He is 8 years old. Cannot find anything for 1851 like you.

Cheers

Andrew

[benzon]

Hi Andrew

Thanks for your input.  I did do a bit of further searching for Carters in St Albans last night on the IGI using the batch no. which seemed to suggest, if I recall correctly, that there were two Carter families floating around St Albans at the right period but here again there wasn't enough info to make a positive conclusion. 

I think there are two births in the Watford area that could be possibles but on both the 71 and 81 it says St Albans.  If there were a discrepancy then I would widen my search but at this stage I dont want to go up the wrong alley just to add another generation. Likewise, Joseph and Emily are firmly in this area of East Herts on the 71 and 81, and there is a possible candidate born Broxbourne.   

So, who knows, did the enumerator or whoever gave the information, have it wrong on three census returns as 61 gives birthplace as St Albans as well.

I tell you, my mum's lot are proving to be a complete and utter mystery.  A supposed father bargeman who trots up the River Lea to Ware, has his fling and disappears(? our interpretation !!) and now a Carter reputed to have been born in St Albans but no trace.

Just out of interest, does your Carter line remain in St Albans or where else did they settle? 

Still, it keeps us on our toes and this forum is fantastic for picking other people's brains when you hit that brick wall.

Thanks again, I'll bear in mind what you say. 

Cheers
Denise

[first-things-first]

Hi Denise

I have found from my experience my Carter's are slippery as well  My great grandfather is shown as Arthur Henry, Henry Charles or just plain Henry on historical documents. Must have loved all his names! Cannot find his birth as yet.

My ancestors (Carter line) navigated towards London - Islington and Shoreditch. I suppose where the work was. Makes it so easy to find a Carter in London My family have navigated eastwards - Essex now via Wiltshire 

Cheers

Andrew

[benzon]

To all those who posted on my message and especially CatOne

Bingo

I did a bit of further research on an elimination basis and then decided that the only way I was going to solve this, one way or another, was to send for the marriage certificate.

Postman has delivered this morning.  Joseph C Clay was indeed Joseph Carter Clay.  His occupation is stated as joiner and he is described on later census returns as a carpenter.  Cert states his father as Thomas deceased so that fits with the St Albans baptism and Emily Flack's father as John Henry Flack deceased which I believe to be correct.

I now have no hesitation in stating that this is my Joseph Carter but mum not convinced.  Always knew she wouldn't be impressed. 

Does everyone agree that the info on the cert tallies with everything else and this is too much of a coincidence for it to now be a red herring?

Now all I need to find out is why he dropped the Clay, whether the William Clay Carter on the 61 is a brother and how the Carter name fits into it all.

A big THANK YOU CatOne, I dont think I would ever have got there without your help.

Cheers
Denise