Census 1841..........Census 1851

[eveder]

hi Heywood,
                   that certaily has ocurred to me but IGI and 1851 census insists Frances is the daughter of John & Elizabeth eveder.

[heywood]

I thought she was (according to 1851) daughter of John and Elizabeth Eagle, Frances Palmer would be her grandmother- that is John's mother.  Are you sure that John Smith who married Elizabeth Howard is 'our' John Smith's father?

[eveder]

............... I get your drift. No I'm not sure but the IGI says so.
        How else can I be sure. Keep the suggestions coming.
        something will "click" soon. Thanks eveder 

[MJP]

Ah, I think I see the issue.  Let me see if I have this straight.  

1) According to the census and IGI records, Job/John Smith and Elizabeth Eagle had a daughter named Frances Palmer Smith.

2) There is a marriage between a John Smith and a Frances Palmer that would seem to be a good match for Job/John's parents and Frances Palmer Smith's grandparents.

BUT

3) Baptism records show that John/Job's parents are John and Elizabeth.  

4) There is a marriage between a John Smith and an Elizabeth Howard which would match with this information, rather than the John Smith/Frances Palmer marriage.  

So, the question is, are John/Job's parents John and Elizabeth or John and Frances.  If they are John and Elizabeth, why would he name his first daughter after a seemingly-unrelated Frances Palmer, rather than after his own mother?

Right?? Whew!

The theory of John Smith marrying twice, first to Frances Palmer, then to Elizabeth Howard could make sense.  But, you still end up with the same problem - if John/Job's mother was the second wife Elizabeth, why name his child after the first wife, who would be of no biological relation?  

So, you are investigating the theory that Frances Palmer Smith was not in fact the daughter of John/Job and Elizabeth, but was taken in by them as their daughter (the fact that she was not baptised right after her birth would allow for this).  She could actually be the granddaughter of John Smith and Frances Palmer, and is perhaps a niece or some kind of cousin to John/Job Smith.  

In order to go further I think you need to find out whether the John Smiths who married Frances an Elizabeth are actually two different people.  One way to do this would be to find evidence of some Smith children with parents John and Frances being baptised around the same time as John and Elizabeth's children.  

Also, when I asked for Frances' father, I meant Frances Palmer Smith's father.  Does FPS ever marry (it would be after 1851 since she is at home with parents then), and if so, who does she name as her father?  If it is John/Job Smith then you have part of an answer.  But if it is another male Smith, then we would have a name that we could explore further.  

That is all the advice I can offer for now.    Let us know how you progress on this!

MJP

[heywood]

Yes MJP- that makes a lot of sense- I also wondered if she was a much younger sister to John Smith - I do think there would be a relationship between Ann and George Smith (with Frances if its her) in 1841 and John, Elizabeth and children. Perhaps she was married to a brother of John.
I haven't liked referring to it before but sadly because of the surname it is so difficult and you could have lots of John Smiths in the same parish.
It would be good to go after Frances' marriage certificate.

PS I can't find a marriage of John Smith and Elizabeth Howard on IGi- have looked a couple of times but still not found it - nor Frances Palmer so now I am very confused and despondent.

[MJP]

I also wondered if she was a much younger sister to John Smith

Ooo - good point - hadn't thought of that. 

Still not sure about the interest in Ann Smith in 1841.  Is it just because she is living with a Frances Smith of the right age (don't know for sure that it is her daughter because it doesn't say so on 1841) and happens to live near John and Elizabeth? 

MJP

[eveder]

Hello MJP & Heywood,
                                  surely your brains must be really aching, now. Here's a little more in answer to some of your thoughts.
John [Job] was born 24th Oct 1794 bapt. 30th Nov. 1794
His sister Elizabeth was born 5th Dec. 1792 bapt 6th Jan 1793
A bro. Edward born 16th Mar.1797 bapt 30th July 1797 all at H/ Hemp.  father JOhn Smith mother Mrs Elizabeth Smith. And i have John Smith marr. Elizabeth Howard 1st Dec 1791, Does any of this help. Tomorrow perhaps Thank you again you are being very kind and a great help ...................eveder   

[heywood]

Hi MJP,
yes the interest with Ann is because of Frances - who may/not be Frances Palmer Smith.
Family Search has fallen out with me - searching for John Smiths is obviously a bit painful.
I have just tried a UK census search for John Smith b 1795 +/- 2 yrs, Hemel Hempstead. There is 1 in 1851 and 1 in 1861. Ours is the 1851 and the 1861 is an unmarried argricultural labourer b 1794, Hemel Hempstead who is a lodger in Great Gaddesden.
This does show that there must always be some doubt. Perhaps the only way is to search Parish records physically and hope that the kindly vicar wrote down some clues - e.g address to point in the right direction. Frances Palmer must surely be a close relative - mother really to have her name passed down.
Good night
Kath

[MJP]

I agree Kath - time for a physical search of the parish records. 

eveder - if these records are on the IGI you can order the microfilm through your local library or LDS Family History Centre.  If you have gotten the information from somewhere else, then you might want to see if the local Genealogical Society has published the records.  I would be particularly interested in the baptism of Frances Palmer Smith - if she was being taken in by relatives there may be a notation on the record (these kinds of extra bits of information were not transcribed into the IGI). 

MJP