Census 1841..........Census 1851

[eveder]

Hello again
                 "our" john smith was born 24th October 1794. you've found a John born 1794 H/Hempstead living in Gt Gaddesden in 1861. Is that coincidence or is what I thought was so.......not so.
 Can I insert what I thought I had already posted but i can't find it so here goes with another idea.
John smith of Gt Gaddesden married Frances Palmer at Aldbury on 5th march 1785. There are children listed thus:-
Elizabeth Smith bapt 19 Feb. 1886 at Gt Gadd.
Rachel     Smith    "     18 Mar. 1787     "     "
Jane        Smith    "       9 Mar 1788
Is it unreasonable to think that John [Job] was born to this couple six years after Jane in 1794? Could H/Hemp on 1851 census relate to gt Gadd? Does this make any sense?....eveder

[eveder]

Hello Heywood and MJP,
                                      Have I come to the right conclusion?
If I want to establish my SMITH ancestors I have to find the parents of John [Job] SMITH in Herts. And/or I need to find the parents of Frances Palmer SMITH from the St Andrews Holborn.
FPS was born on 14th January 1827.
Is it possible to obtain that info. from St a Andrews Holborn parish records?

[MJP]

Hi eveder,

Interesting that the children of John and Frances seem to stop before the marriage of John and Elizabeth - this adds further credence to the theory that the two Johns are the same person. 

I don't think the St. Andrews Holborn records will help you as it is usually baptisms that are recorded, not births (you just got lucky on the Old Church Saint Pancras baptism record that they also took the time to also note her date of birth).  And that record does not say she was born in St. Andrew - that is only from the census.  I wouldn't take that as gospel truth.  London birthplaces are notoriously wrong on the census. 

I would order the Old Church Saint Pancras records (or request a look-up here on Rootschat) to check the original that the IGI record came from, in case there is more information noted.  When I went back to the IGI, I also noticed that her marriage record is there! 

Frances Palmer Smith and Samuel Goss, 10 Dec 1854 Old Church Saint Pancras.

So, if someone has access to the records, they might be able to look that up for you at the same time they are looking up Frances' baptism.  Or you should be able to find them in the BMD index and order their marriage certificate. 

I can't find Frances and Samuel in the 1861 to see what she says as her birthplace. 

The Saint Andrew Holborn records are on the IGI, so if you want to have a look you can.  But I don't see any likely candidates - I also checked for Frances Palmer with a different last name, but there are none. 

If Frances' baptism and marriage do not help you, then I think your next step will be to check the original versions of the two John Smith marriages, to see if there any clues that can help you determine if they are the same person...

It may be case of John deciding to name her after his father's first wife, for some bizarre reason! 

MJP

[eveder]

Hi MJP........... your last post is both helpful and sensible I will start to put it into operation.
However did you notice the comment of heywood, re-1851 census for John Smith giving reference to birth in 1794 "our" John.
Another John Smith in 1861 census is an unmarried AG Lab born H/Hemp. but lodging Gt Gadd. so it is possble that there were
2 Johns. have I got the right John with the wrong parents?

[MJP]

That is entirely possible eveder!  I think the only way you are going to know for sure is if you look at the original registers yourself and just go through that whole period looking for John Smiths (both christenings and marriages) and take note of each one.  Hopefully then you will be able to sort them out.

Sometimes records get missed on the IGI, so it is possible that there was another John Smith baptism that is not showing up.  Or, one of them may be mistaken in his birthplace, and was actaully born somewhere near Gt G or HH. 

Every little piece of information you can get will add to the puzzle, and hopefully it will sort itself out eventually!

MJP

[heywood]

Hello you two!

Just to say that Frances and Samuel are on 1881 census at RG11; Piece: 734; Folio: 83; Page: 30 - her birthplace is St Andrews Holborn.
They have several children and a grandchild. I can't find them in 1871 or 1861 - none of them which is odd.
Found the grandchild in 1891 and she has a mother, Elizabeth born abt 1860 - who is probably the daughter of Frances and Samuel Goss.
(Sorry that this does not help at all).

[heywood]

found them in 1861 - RG9; Piece: 107; Folio: 40; Page: 76
She still gives St Andrew Holborn so it seems pretty definite. I was hoping that she would have relatives with her who could help - no such luck. Oldest daughter is ELizabeth - 3 yrs and son Augustus aged 1. She is listed as Fanny.
If you don't have details and need them  - please post.
Kath

[eveder]

Hello there, both,
                           to start the ball rolling I've posted a request on the Hertfordshire rootschat asking for parents of the 2 john Smiths listed on the census for 1851/61. and if poss. their birth/bapt. dates. It's worth a try although I'm not sure it is in the public domain...................... eveder   

[heywood]

I hope something turns up.