Thomas Carlyle Dumfrieshire

[DJH]

 My GGGGrandfather Thomas Carlyle (not the Thomas Carlyle, writer) lived in Carlisle but was born in Scotland around 1825.   His wife was called Janet also born in Scotland about 1829. He had a daughter Jean later called Jane Carlyle who was born in Carlisle in about 1850. I found this information in the English 1851 census.
I believe there is a connection with Ecclefechan. I have no idea who his parents are or whether he had any siblings.
Please, can anyone help to give him a place of birth?
Thanks
Pauline

[MonicaL]

Hi Pauline

There is an OPR entry for a Thomas Carlyle b. 1824:

Birth:   28/08/1824   CARLYLE   THOMAS   JAMES CARLYLE/MARY BARNES FR430   M   Annan   /DUMFRIES   812/ 0020 0050

Christening:   04/09/1824   CARLYLE   THOMAS   JAMES CARLYLE/MARY BARNES FR412   M   Annan   /DUMFRIES   812/ 0020 0032   

There is also an OPR entry for a marriage between a Thomas Carlyle and Janet:

THOMAS CARLYLE  Marriages: Spouse: JANET CARRUTHERS    
Marriage:  07 NOV 1848  Annan, Dumfries, Scotland


The 1851 Census for Thomas and Janet in Cumberland show a daughter Jean, 1 and a James, 3 months.  Speculating here, James could be called after Thomas's father, if they followed Scottish naming order. Have you managed to confirm Janet's birth details?

You do need to find some form of verification for Thomas's parents. I've gone through all the censuses for Thomas and Janet, pity they only show Scotland on all the censuses. I can't see Thomas after 1891 (Janet I can see living with daughter Jane in 1901, and she also still just shows Scotland for birth place).

One lead that may be worthwhile following up is the 'niece' showing in 1891, a Fanny Carlyle, age 36 b. Scotland. It may be the only other way of linking up Thomas to the above OPR entry or indeed any other family.


Regards.

Monica

[MonicaL]

  I'm excited for you!

I think I have found niece Fanny living at her grandparents James and Mary in Annan:

James Carlyle    58, Retired Cotton Skinner, b. Annan
Mary Carlyle    55, b. England
Joseph Carlyle    18, son, b. Annan
David Carlyle    17, son, b. Annan
Mary Anne Carlyle 15, son, b. Annan
Faney Carlyle    6, granddaughter, b. England

Address: Lady Street, Annan, Dumfrieshire

This looks like Fanny's birth details:

Births Jun 1854  CARLYLE Fanny    Carlisle    10b   378


James and Mary seem to have had lots of children. These are just some of them on IGI. Only the girls are showing - looks to be one of those films where LDS only loaded on the girls:

1. JANET CARLYLE  Christening: 08 AUG 1830 Annan, Dumfries, Scotland
2. FRANCES CARLYLE Christening: 04 MAR 1832 Annan, Dumfries, Scotland
3. JANE CARLYLE Christening: 17 AUG 1828 Annan, Dumfries, Scotland
4. JANE CARLYLE Christening: 01 DEC 1833 Annan, Dumfries, Scotland
5. MARGARET CARLYLE Christening: 01 OCT 1826 Annan, Dumfries, Scotland

This looks to be the OPR entry for parents' marriage:

JAMES CARLILE  Marriages: Spouse: MARY BARNES    
Marriage:  23 MAY 1824 Annan, Dumfries, Scotland

Thomas would look to be a post 3 month honeymoon baby 
   

I haven't found the family as yet in the 1841 Census but I can see them in Annan in the 1851 Census. I'll post tomorrow as I am getting tired and I'll start to make mistakes 

Niece Fanny may prove to be the key to your Thomas 

Regards.

Monica

[MonicaL]

If you look in FreeBMD www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl you will find details of all of Thomas and Janet's children including Jean and James who show in the 1851 census. Their other children who show in the later censuses are also there:

Births Dec 1849   CARLYLE    Jane         Carlisle    25   72
Births Mar 1851  Carlyle    James         Carlisle    25   67

Regards.

Monica

[DJH]

Dear Monica
Thank you for your useful information.
Yesterday, I was in London and my sister ( a writer which is why I am interested in the Carlyle connection) showed me a book published in 1802 in which was inscribed James Carlyle 1821 and Thomas Carlyle 1849 with an address for Bridekirk Villas. However, this booke was found in Ecclefechan. I think I am on the trail.
By the way, what is OPR, please?
Best wishes . Pauline

[MonicaL]

Hi Pauline

Sorry to use abbreviations - out of habit! OPRs stands for Old Parish Registers which is the only form of verification of BMDs (very little on the Ds) before the start of official registration in Scotland in 1855.

Re the book reference, when you say "book found in Ecclefechan", what do you mean...just curious!

Regards.

Monica

[DJH]

Hello Monica,
OPR - obvious!!!!
The book was found about fifty years ago at the house of a relative living in Ecclefechan called Thomas Forster ( Forster is our family name) whose name is also in the book.  A Jane Carlyle was married to my GGranfather Arthur Forster.
My sister is the writer Margaret Forster and she wrote a best selling book called Hidden Lives which actually contributed to many people's sudden interest in their families. She researched only my mother's family and I'm now unravelling my father's side.
In April we hope to visit the Annan area so I need to know where to look for connections.
Thanks again. Pauline.

[MonicaL]

Hi Pauline

Is this Jane Carlyle the first born daughter of Thomas Carlyle and Janet:

JANE CARLYLE  Marriages: ARTHUR FORSTER    
Marriage:  15 JUN 1871  Saint Mary, Carlisle, Cumberland, England
Husband Age at Marriage: 21    
Wife Age at Marriage:     22

I understand now. Good luck with everything 

Regards.

Monica

[DJH]

Hi Monica,
Yes the Jane is Thomas and Janet's daughter
Thanks for the exact date of Arthur and Jane's marriage.
How do you access the information so quickly and exactly? Is there a way to access OPRs for Scotland? The only way I know is to use AncesterUK and then send for certificates to get exact dates - very costly and slow.  I'm looking for shortcuts so would be grateful for any tips. I would like to think that sister's writing skills came from a family connection to the famous Thomas Carlyle.
Best wishes, Pauline.