ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden

[wdurham]

And there's me thinking I was the only one sad enough to be sitting at my PC at 7.30 on a holiday....

Thanks for the BVRI info - and yes, some of it is way out.

1833 for Eliza just doesn't work. She was 4 in 1841, 14 in 1851 (transcribed by Ancestry as 12, but the image says otherwise!) etc, and I have her memorial inscription as follows: "In Loving Memory of Lizzie Chandler. The Beloved wife of George Chandler, who peacefully passed away June 27 1921, aged 85 years. "Forever with the Lord".  Perhaps she was 3 MONTHS rather than years at baptism - her birth could have been the trigger for the multiple baptism on 18 Sept 1836. (And how's this for a coincidence? Her husband George Chandler was baptised on exactly the same day in Marston Moretaine!)

1831 for Sophia is plain wrong. She was 1 in 1841. And not 10 till 1851! (Mistranscribed by Ancestry as 6.) I wonder if, like Eliza, her age at baptism was 10 months and was simply misread?

And as for Rebecca! Words fail me. Actually they don't - if you think about how things were physically written down, "4" could be misread as "41" - I have just seen a "4" on a census page with its downstroke written so far to the right it could easily be misread. That accounts for 1795!

Emma seems to have died in March 1851 - I haven't confirmed with a cert, but she is on FreeBMD thus:

Deaths Mar 1851 
ARMSTRONG    Emma        Bedford    6   16

I had noticed that males and females are listed in separate batches in some parishes - J and K seem to be the prefixes. And I am pretty sure the Ravensden batch IS new - when I first looked at these Armstrongs about 6 years ago, there weren't any Ravensden baptisms. And Hugh Wallis doesn't list it, as you say.

As for JP's William 1791-ish, he DOES say Ravensden in two consecutive censuses. However, it's always worth remembering that even the images we see in the enumerator books are already first generation copies - and as some of the enumerators were practically illiterate, I can see how Gravenhurst could be misread as Ravensden.  And of course the Ancestry transcripts are dreadful. I subscribe to the Genealogist and British Origins for more reliable transcripts!

The IGI has the baptism I put up yesterday - William the son of Thomas Armstrong and Phoebe Wisson was baptised in Upper Gravenhurst. In 1851 a Thomas Armstrong b 1799 with his wife Mary is in Upper Gravenhurst, with Phoebe his mother also in residence. His birthplace is given as Upper Gravenhurst, so at the time of his birth in 1799, Thomas Snr and Phoebe were not in Ravensden - indicating they are unlikely to have been there in 1791 either. And certainly in 1841 Thomas Snr and Phoebe and Thomas Jnr, Mary and all the little Armstrongs were definitely in Upper Gravenhurst.

So the William 1791 born in Ravensden and living in Thurleigh in 1851 is likely to be a completely different person to William the son of Thomas and Phoebe. Thomas and Phoebe's family didn't move, so if William went travelling it must have been alone, perhaps looking for work. Even in his teens he would surely have known where he had been born? I can see a confusion between UG and Ravensden if the whole family had moved from UG to somewhere else, and the only knowledge he had of his birthplace was what he had been told as a child and perhaps misunderstood or misheard.....

Following in the tracks of you and JP, it seems that the "Ravensden" William married Elizabeth Franklin in Wilden in 1816. Eilizabeth was a Wilden girl, probably the daughter of Thomas Franklin and "Trew" and b about 1796. They had a son William in 1822. Elizabeth died in 1825. William then married Ann Wrench nee Gammons in Thurleigh in 1827 - probably he needed a wife to look after his little boy (and there could also have been other children who had left home by 1841)  William and Ann had three children - Sarah 1828, Thomas 1831 and Eli 1835.

So who was this William Armstrong? Wilden is only yards from Ravensden.  Thurleigh is also very close. On purely circumstantial evidence, I would put him as a son of John and Sarah in preference to the documented son of Thomas and Phoebe- if he really was born in Ravensden, and he seems convinced he was, then he is 90% likely to have been an undocumented child of John and Sarah - they were the only Armstrong couple having children in Ravensden at that time.

Oh dear - and now to add insult to injury, in addition to the IGI messing me about, my broadband connection is playing up so goodness knows when I can send this!

[johnP-bedford]

The William Armstrong b 1820 in 1841 household with my William Armstrong & Ann (W)Rench (previously Gamons)  is I believe William's son from his marriage to Elizabeth Franklin of Wilden. Later censuses have him born Wilden, he is now married to Dinah ? b 1820 Thurleigh. In 1851 he is living next door to his step sister Sarah who is now married to Thomas Cowley.

As to Ann Armstrong, on 1871 census, after husband William dies, she is down as mother in household headed by John Rench b 1814.    

[wdurham]

William Armstrong and Elizabeth Franklin do seem to have had three other children in Wilden as well as William b 1822 -

Sarah baptised 26 Oct 1817
John baptised 19 May 1822, same day as William
Elizabeth baptised 17 Oct 1724

That's a good clincher, in my opinion - first daughter named after William's mother Sarah and a son (who could be the eldest - hard to say whether William or John came first as they were baptised together)  named after his father.

OK, they are very common names, but it's another piece of circumstantial evidence to add to the pile. 

[johnP-bedford]

... interesting that William has daughter Sarah (1817) with Elizabeth Franklin, & he then has another daughter Sarah (1828) with Ann Rench/Gamons

maybe the first daughter Sarah died ? 

[wdurham]

Quite possible, John.

If the first Sarah DID die, it's another little bit of circumstantial evidence, in that William Snr was determined to have a daughter named Sarah! Which strengthens the theory that it could have been his mother's name.

When you first raised the possibility of a connection between our trees, it seemed unlikely. But after all this digging around, I suspect we do have a link via William b 1791....it's just going to be very hard to prove it!

He exists as the husband of Elizabeth Franklin and Ann Wrench/Gammons, and as the father of 7 children. He also exists in 3 census returns. But we still have no definite information about who he was or where he came from other than his own declaration of being born in Ravensden.

[bedfordshire boy]

I go away for 5 minutes and there's a whole new load of messages for me to catch up on! I forgot it was a bank holiday until I spoke to my mother in Bedford.

I cannot see a burial of the first Sarah on the NBI.

And as the IGI seems to be a bit iffy so far as Ravensden PRs go, I think I would have a hard look at the transcript to see if William 1791 might have been missed too.

Bank holiday here tomorrow, not that that will affect me a lot. Lots take today off as well - making the bridge they call it - to make a very long weekend of it. The trouble in May is that there are three such bank holidays, so there are three 3 day weeks!

But tonight is bar night!

Enjoy!

David

[johnP-bedford]

Hello David

Is each & every Monday night a bar night ? - looking forward to it already

We have 2 bank holidays in May, the first (beginning of month) is supposidely linked to May Day, & the second at end of month replaces Whitsun (Pentecost) religious holiday.

I've been over to Eaton Socon to glean info from their local history fair.

Good health & Cheers John   

[wdurham]

We have discussed the possibility of William Armstrong 1791 b Ravensden as being an undocumented child of John Armstrong 1760 and Sarah.

I have just found a burial for a Sarah Armstrong as follows:

NBI =  Name Sarah ARMSTRONG Date 12 Dec 1810 Aged 3 Place Ravensden Description All Saints Denomination Anglican County code BDF

So there's a genuine undocumented child - in that particular period, she can ONLY belong to John and Sarah.

Unless it is a mistranscription.

William 1791 and Elizabeth Franklin had a daughter Sarah b 1817 in Wilden. He later baptised another Sarah in 1828, the inference being that the first Sarah had died, as JP said.  It's not very likely, but would be possible for 1820 to be misread as 1810, and it's possible he may have buried her in Ravensden rather than Wilden.

Having said that, it seems William and Elizabeth weren't very lucky parents - they also lost their son John, but they buried him in Wilden:

NBI = Name John ARMSTRONG Date  6 Apr 1823 Aged 1 Place Wilden Description St Nicholas Denomination Anglican County code BDF

And 2 x Elizabeths, the first of which does not appear to have been baptised, the second of which was baptised on 17 Oct 1824.

NBI = Name Elizabeth ARMSTRONG Date  4 Mar 1820 Aged 2 Place Wilden Description St Nicholas Denomination Anglican County code BDF

NBI =  Name Eliz ARMSTRONG Date 23 Dec 1824 Aged 6m Place Wilden Description St Nicholas Denomination Anglican County code BDF

The only survivor appears to have been William b 1820 - which is a blessing, or it would have left no link at all between William of Wilden and the William of Thurleigh!

[bedfordshire boy]

And there's no Sarah baptised 1807 on the BVRI either. Just Ann 28 Sept 1807, which doesn't leave much time for a Sarah who was 3 in Dec 1810 to have been been born (unless Ann was another of their delayed baptisms). Have you traced Ann going forwards Wendy?

Regards

David