Moffat & Scott - a puzzle which is driving me nutty

[julieann1]

In the household of my ancestor Jean Moffat (nee Carson) in 1851 is a grandaughter who I cannot identify parents for.

Elizabeth Scott, 13, born Ewe, Dms, is living in the household of her grandmother, Jean Moffat, at Corrie Common, in 1851.
She was also there in 1841.
In 1861 she is a housemaid in the household of William Paterson, at Twiglees, Eskdalemuir.

I have hunted everywhere for a birth, marriage or death for Elizabeth Scott, without any luck.

In 1861 another stray Scott turns up in the Moffat family.  Ann Scott, 11, b Hoddam is living in the household of her uncle William Moffat (son of Jean). She was still there in 1871.

I have found a Scott household in 1851, with an Ann of the right age:
Ecclefechan
William Scott, head, 50, mail post runner, b Middlebie
Ann Scott,wife,39, b Hoddam
Agnes Scott, 6, b middlebie
Ann Scott, 1, b Hoddam
George Scott, 4, b Hoddam
Jannet Scott, 6, b Middlebie

The parents of this family cannot be found in 1861 and the children are dispersed to various aunts and uncles.

If this is the correct family Ann Scott should be nee Moffat - but I can't find a birth or marriage to back this up.

Any ideas for other areas of research that may help with this?
 

[Gadget]

Hi Julie

Your message has got me going around in circles too - and I like puzzles 

I have some sheets of paper in front of me with charts, dates and scribbled names all over them - Scott, Moffat, Carson, Hoddom, Middlebie, etc  - and they are haunting me, so I thought I would at least make contact to say that you've not been ignored   

I'm wondering whether some or one of the grandchildren were illegitimate and carried the father's name (as it was often the case). This might not show up in any baptismal records.

Again have you tried the various forms of Elizabeth - including Euphemia and Elspeth.

It looks as if William and Ann Scott might have died before the 1861 and probably before 1855. I presume that you've checked for deaths.

I'll see if I can figure out any more and, if I do, I'll get back.

Regards

Gadget

[julieann1]

Hi
I haven't got any further on this one.  I had a similar problem with another family on my tree, and eventually found out who the child's parents were, but this one has really got  me stumped. 
I've just sent off for some death records and MI's from the D&G History Society, so you never know, something may turn up there.
Thanks for your interest.  it is a good puzzle, isn't it?  

[Gadget]

I do have the KKD MIs if yours venture over there 

[JAP]

Hello julieann1,

The main problem seems to be that most of the events took place pre-1855    And probably that the families were not members of the Established Church of Scotland (or perhaps didn't baptize their children at all).    Only the OPRs of the Established Church of Scotland are on ScotlandsPeople.  And, from the Hugh Wallis site, it seems that the relevant parishes are on the IGI but only OPRs - no records of other churches.

At least you do have Elizabeth in the 1861.  I suppose you've searched widely in the 1871 (not just in Scotland) for any Elizabeth (no surname as she might have married) born Ewes (or even Dumfries or even just Scotland) around the right time?  And, as Gadget advises, trying variants of Elizabeth (including Elisabeth and Eliza ...).

Perhaps another possibility might be to follow up (say) George SCOTT - as you have him in 1861 (I think?) and have his approximate age and his birthplace (I suggest George because George is not as common as the names of the girls, and at least his name wouldn't change with marriage!).  If you can locate him in later censuses and perhaps find a marriage for him, you could download the marriage certificate and at least find out (one hopes!) the maiden name of his mother.  It wouldn't solve the puzzle but might be a step along the way.

Best of luck,

JAP

[Gadget]

Hi Julie

Clutching at straws time 

Do you know whether Jean Moffat (nee Carson) had a daughter called Alice? I don't see anything on the IGI but that doesn't signify.

The reason being that I have found the marriage of an Agnes Scott in Ecclefechan (Hoddom) in 1869. She was aged 30 and her parents are given as Peter Scott and Alice Moffat (dec).

It may not be the family but they could be related 

Gadget

[julieann1]

I haven't come across an Alice.  The children I have so far for John Moffat and Jean Carson are:
James b 1802
William b 1816
John b1826
Elizabeth b 1821
unknown female unknown date

There must be more - big gaps.  John and Jean Carson married in 1800.  Jean was born about 1781. JOhn died before 1841. So that gives them 26 - 30 years to be having children.

I have been looking for George Scott, as suggested by JAP, the only likely looking one is,

in 1871:
High St Lochmaben.
George Scott, 23, baker, b Hoddom
Sarah Scott, 25, wife, b Lochmaben
James S Scott, 2months, b Lochmaben
William Scott, 2, son, b Lochamben.

He is in West St in 1881, and appears to have died by 1891, as Sarah Scott is living Queen St Lochmaben, as head of household. Youngest child is 7.

I will look for his death and marriage on Scotland's People later.

Where, if anywhere, does one find Presbytarian and other records?  I have one post 1855 marriage on another branch of my family where the banns were read according to the rites of the Presbytarian church. (and the rest of that family has been a right pain to research as the records just aren't there). And how, apart from chance, do you discover if your ancestors were not Church of Scotland?

I'm off to do something completely different now, in the hope that I may have a brain wave while I not thinking about it..

[Gadget]

The Church of Scotland was Presbyterian. Maybe JAP will know if there was another.

Gadget

[JAP]

Hi again julieann1,

I saw the marriage of John MOFFAT & Jean CARSON in 1800 on the IGI.

But wondered whether it was actually your Jean ...  Given that your Jean was listed as 50 (with rounding = 50-54) in 1841 which would make her too young to have been married in 1800?  How did you find that the other children you list were from this couple?

That 1871 George is looking good so good luck with the marriage of this couple (presumably George SCOTT & Sarah TWEEDIE from the IGI) and with George's parentage.

The presbyterian Church of Scotland went through all sorts of schisms.  Here's a helpful diagram:
http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html

My lot (from Stirlingshire) were not Established (presbyterian) Church of Scotland but were Associate Session (also presbyterian as you'll see from the diagram) people.  Luckily I've found some records for them.  Indeed, the records of some Associate Session churches are on the IGI (not mine of course  ).  But I think it is just luck (at present - though I understand that more and more records are in the process of being indexed by the National Archives of Scotland) whether you find people when they weren't of the Established Church of Scotland (though noting that sometimes the Established Church lot insisted on recording events of 'Secessionists' in their own records so even secessionists can occur in the OPRs and some of mine do!  With grumpy comments in the OPRs like "married by a Secessionist"!).

Good luck,

JAP