Was anything special happening in 1871? Lost person Arthur McKinnis

[kiwijulia]

I have traced my Scots heritage from a family tree (which seems to have some errors on it) to George McKinnis b1860 m Jemima Whitby but am unsure of myself going back a generation further.

My tree says his father is Arthur McKames and that his son George changed the family name to McKinnis in 1940 (clearly can't be true and as according to the census I have he was born in 1860 and at the time his father was McKinnis this doesn't make much sense as it can't be 1840 either).

I can't find them prior to 1861 or in 1871.

I have what I believe to be them below for you...

In 1881 I have:
Arthur McKinnis b1833, Ireland   48
Isabella McKinnis  b1842, Ireland   39
George McKinnis b1860, Forfar, Dundee Occ: Tailor   21
Arthur McKinnis b1865, Forfar, Dundee Occ: Baker   16
Henry McKinnis b1874, Forfar, Dundee   7
Registration Number:   282/1
Civil parish:   St Peter
Address:   14 St Peters St

1891 and the same family w/o George at the same address:
Arthur McKarnes b.1835 Camer, Ireland occ warehouseman   56
Isabella McKarnes b.1846 Camer, Ireland 45
Arthur McKarnes b.1867, Dundee Forfar. Occ Lab Driver   24
Hennry McKinnis b.1874, Dundee, Forfarshire, Occ Van Driver 17

Then I found George, Arthur and Isabella in 1861
Arthur McKennis b.1829 Carron, Ireland   32
Isabella McKennis b1839 Carron, Ireland 22
Mary McKennis b1858 Carron, Ireland   3
George McKennis b. 1860 Dundee, Forfarshire 1

Registration Number:   282/2
Registration district:   Dundee Second District
Civil parish: Liff and Benvie
County:   Angus
Address:   24 Mid Wynd
Occupation: Dyer Journeyman

The  year of birth changes for Arthur and Isabella but is consistent for George between 1861 and later as a married man but his parents year of births change. I know this happens a lot. Do you think this is him and do you know where they might be in 1871 or 51 to verify any of this?

Julia

[MonicaL]

Hi Julia

From what info you have posted, the family is unlikely to have been in Scotland for the 1851 Census. The child before George, Mary, is showing as born in Ireland so the family would look to have arrived in Scotland between 1858 and George's birth in 1860.

Have you found George and wife Jemima in the censuses after their marriage to verify his birth place as Dundee? When was this marriage (was it in Scotland)?

Hopefully we can find your missing 1871 entry for the family.

Regards.

Monica 

[MonicaL]

I've found the entry for 1901 with George and Jemima (have you got this?) which confirms Dundee and birth year c. 1862 for his birth.

Have you looked at his marriage cert? This, together with his birth cert. would confirm to you that you have the right family for George.

Regards.

Monica

[MonicaL]

This is the closest entry I can see on the 1871 census index. I wonder if Arthur Snr.'s name has been mistranscribed?:

Peter McKinnes    39, tenter, b. Ireland
Isabella McKinnes 30, b. Ireland
George McKinnes 10, b. Dundee
Arthur McKinnes 6, b. Dundee

Address:  6 St Peter's St, Dundee ( a couple of doors along from the 1881 entry!)

[Forfarian]

Address:  6 St Peter's St, Dundee ( a couple of doors along from the 1881 entry!)

It is possible that it was the same house, but the street had been renumbered in the interim.

[kiwijulia]

I think you might have found something there!
Is there anyway to check if it has been mistranscribed?

I did find this entry and wonder - but Arthur and Peter are pretty different.
With most of the English census records you can view the original - this isn't possible with this one is it?

I have census records for George (and Jemima) in 1901 and in 1891 (where daughters Isabella and Rebecca surnames are Patterson)  Source citation - Parish: Dundee; ED: 9; Line: 11; Year: 1891.

On my family tree it doesn't give a mothers name only "Patterson?" - I think they have guessed this because George's daughter Rebecca adopts the name Patterson-McKinnis... also the fact that they called thier daughter Isabella makes it, from my little experience, more likely I have the right family as this is the grandmothers name but this is conjecture.. 

I don't have the marriage certificate and I think that is the next thing I should be looking for. Unfortunately I dont know on what evidence my family tree was written, so I'm trying to verify it myself.

Thanks Monica!

[MonicaL]

To view the originals of census images and BMDs, you need to register and view them on Scotlands People, a pay to view site. Unlike the English censuses, Ancestry only have the indexes for Scotland.

Have a look at this link from Pam www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html which details how to go about Scottish research and also what is included in the Scottish BMDs (well worth the money!).

Scotlands People at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk is reasonable in terms of costs (much cheaper than ordering English BMDs). You buy units in blocks of 30 at £6GB. It costs 1 unit (£0.20) to view search results and 5 units (£1) to view the image on line (you can back this up on your PC's hard drive and print off).

You probably have enough searches to use up your £6 in one go!

- George's BC
- George and Jemima's MC
- 1871 Census page image
- DCs for Arthur and Isabella which will include their parents' names.......and the rest 

You need to allow in your searches for spelling variants on names, particularly the surname McKinnes. SP lets you search with the use of wildcards (* or ?) to pick up on spelling variants. I searched as M*c*k*s for McKinnes. For example, from IGI, George's birth entry (as you will probably find it spelt on Scotlands People:

GEORGE JAMES MC KEMES  Birth: 06 MAR 1860 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Parents: Father: ARTHUR MC KEMES  Mother: ISABELLA PATTERSON

George's birth cert. should also hopefully include the year and place of parents' marriage which might offer some clues as to where parents' originated from in Ireland (if not George's, then probably one of their other children's BCs who were born in Scotland).

George and Jemima's marriage entry on SP:

1882   MCKAMES   GEORGE JAMES   WHITBY   JEMIMA   ST MARY   DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS   282/02 0116

If you look at the 1871 census index, you will see Jemima Whity (born in Perth) living with her family in Dundee, parents Francis, also a tailor like George, and Margaret (this should be confirmed on the 1882 MC).

Good luck and give a shout if you get stuck 

Regards.

Monica

[kiwijulia]

OK, I've tried to post this three times and written eloquent summations about the whole business and had them time out or fail due to my rubbish internet connection three times - so this time - pure business...

Did the searches and didn't find anything useful until:
Henry McKemes birth cert giving (1874) parents wedding date 1 june 1956 Co. Cavan

Other details on the cert look like:
Father Arthur's (rank proff etc) Quaker, Carpet Warehouser - the Quaker thing I thought a strange inclusion but, Arthur is a Warehouseman in the 1881 census which follows.
Also,
in the 1971 census which showed what looked like my family but with a head called Peter.. the occupation is  Tenter (Someone who, after cloth was dyed, stretched it on a frame, called a "Tent" for drying) and in the previous census 1861 he is a Dyer Journeyman - so that fits.
Also, the address is St Peters Street, Dundee - the same address as in the 1881 census and the same address as is on Henry's birth cert.

In the 1861 census Arthur's birth is given as Ireland, Carron.
But Carron could have been transcribed wrongly form Cavan?
There is a Carron in C. Claire but no Carron in Co Cavan, Hmmmm

Ive prob missed bit's out  - but in desperation at getting it posted I've just done this from memory. Forgive me if I've left bits out.
Jules

[MonicaL]

Jules

  Looks like you are pretty much there.

Did you check the original image on SP re the Peter v. Thomas issue?  Similarly, did you see whether the 1861 original census image actually showed Cavan rather than Carron. Places of birth on the censuses are in main given as Parishes (or Counties for Ireland) rather than individual place names.

From all the posts, I would say you have your family from 1861 onwards, following their arrival in Scotland. Given that the 1874 birth cert also shows Co. Cavan as the place of marriage, I would say that is where they were probably from as shown.

I don't know if you are aware of this but Ancestry's transcription of the censuses is not done by people but is automated via software (cheaper, quicker, cheaper.... ). This can result in the daftest of mistranscriptions. When in doubt, always check the original on SP!

Regards.

Monica