James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)

[Brutus]

Does anybody have a loose end of this name, who disappeared in the early 1800's

The Story   James Sidebottom was born c. 1789, baptised 19-12-1790, St Thomas Ardwick, then a village on the outskirts of Manchester.   Got into trouble!!!   Tried 4-5-1806, acquitted, tried 25-4-1809, re-tried 11-10-1809 apparently same offence, sentenced to 7 years in Oz.  Expensive barrister employed - got him that time!   Transported, escaped late 1811 & got back to England, (rare event), caught again in Leicester, used alias of John Smith, (escaping was a hanging offence), & sentenced to another 7 years in Oz.   Transported again, pinched something in Sydney, sentenced to the Newcastle Penal settlement.  There he appears to have decided third time proves it, & if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.   Became Chief Constable, confessed his misdeeds to Gov. MacQuarie & was pardoned 19-8-1819.   Became disgustingly rich, married, but unfortunately when he died he left it all to his sons, & one of his daughters, my ancestor, got only a 20 pound annuity.
---One of the curious factors is that he appears to have been very well educated, unusual in the late 1700's.  Built a large house, almost a mansion, named Courtland Place, so the name must have meant something to him.
---The IGI shows some names in the Manchester area who could be relatives, but I have no definite connection.
---A relative of mine searched for court documents while in England, the Lancashire archives found a few fragmentary references, as above, but the main documents for that period have been lost.

Any suggestions as to where I might find more information would be welcome, and if anybody has a lost g-x-g-uncle that would be marvellous.





 




   

[Tina Bean]

Hi Brutus,
I can't help you with James life prior to him getting into trouble but I can tell you that my children are descendants of John Smith alias James Sidebottom. John Smith had one child a lot later than the other children, his son was Alfred Sydney Smith and he was born 10 years after the next youngest child. Alfred Sydney Smith was a bit of a wild child and was also disinherited when John Smith died. An interesting thing to do given John Smiths career.
I have mostly family accounts to thank for news of Alfred being disinherited so I will need to confirm that for sure. However, I am happy to help you with any information I have. It seems you may well have more than I do though.
Cheers

[Brutus]

      Thank you for replying, it's nice to know somebody is interested in the fascinating James Sidebottom, alias John Smith, saga.  I have found twelve children for "John Smith" and Mary in total, two died shortly after birth, and Alfred Sydney is certainly the last of the surviving ten.  However, the twelve are almost equally spaced, most at the usual 2 year, +/- a little bit spacing, which was so common in those days.
      I don't know much about Alfred Sydney, I have not closely investigated him, as I am descended from Sophia, the eldest daughter and second child.  I have found births/ baptisms of ten children listed for Alfred, of which three died in infancy, but that's all I know about him.  Does this agree with your findings?? 
      I do have a paper copy of "John Smith's" will, which might reveal something more about Alfred. I can't remember all the details, I was more interested in Sophia's small share, a annuity of 20 pounds.  However, I recently tidied up a lot of my FH stuff, and I haven't a clue where it is at the moment!!   If you are interested I'll try to dig it out and scan it.
Regards,    Brutus.
   

[garstonite]

Baptism: 19 Dec 1790 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
James Sidebottom - Son of Jams. Sidebottom & Elizh.
    Abode: Manchester
...........................................................
Burial: 31 Dec 1815 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
James Sidebotham -
    Age: 25 years

seems strange - the age fits perfectly ...I wonder if John Smith really was a James Sidebotham / Sidebottom - or did he steal the identity in the first place ??

bit of a coincidence to have a Baptism and Death that fit perfectly age wise in a little village like Ardwick as it was in 1790's ..... you may dismiss this death - but in your shoes I would be curious even more now about John Smith / James Sidebottoms that went to Oz real birth name  ...

[garstonite]

as James and Elizabeth were James parents in late 1700's in Ardwick I would suggest this is a possible sibling list for James bap 1790

Burial: 19 Dec 1785 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Sidebottom - Daughter of James Sidebottom & Elizabeth
    Age: 2 yrs.
    Abode: Manchester
    Cause of Death: S.p
...............................................................................................
Baptism: 26 Feb 1786 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Sarah Sidebottom - Daughter of James Sidebottom & Elizh.
    Born: 30 Jan 1786
    Abode: Manchester
...........................................
Baptism: 14 Sep 1788 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Alice Sidebottom - Daughter of James Sidebottom & Elizh.
    Abode: Manchester
....................................................
Baptism: 4 Aug 1793 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Saml. Sidebottom - Son of Jas. Sidebottom & Elizth.
    Abode: Manr.
...........................................................................
Burial: 4 Mar 1795 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Mary Sidebottham - Daughter of James Sidebottham & Betty
    Age: 13 years ....so wasn't baptised in St Thomas - no record shows
    Abode: Manr.
...................................
Burial: 7 Apr 1795 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Saml. Sidebottham - Son of James Sidebottham & Elizth.
    Age: 1 year 9 mon
    Abode: Manchr.
....................................................................
Baptism: 12 Jul 1795 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Robert Sidebottham - Son of James Sidebottham & Betty
    Abode: Manchr.
....................
Baptism: 10 Dec 1797 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Sidebotham - Daughter of James Sidebotham & Eliz.
    Abode: Manchr.
.............................................................
that looks to be all records at St Thomas ,Ardwick ......looks to me like they didn' t live in Ardwick because abode each time says Manchester .....and as Mary who died aged 13 in 1795 was born in 1782 - she is not baptised in Ardwick St Thomas church - so I would suggest the family were not local to Ardwick in 1782 ........

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/cgi-bin/mkindx.cgi?parish=Manchester&type=District&community=Ardwick

[Tina Bean]

Hi Brutus,
I don't have all of the children. I have 10 children in total and only 9 of those to John Smith, one of them is by Mary with her first husband. So I would love to do an information swap with you. I also do not have a copy of the Will from John Smith and yes would absolutely love a scanned copy if it if you are happy to share.
I agree that there is likely to be something a bit odd with the parents in the first place. Where did you get the birth location? My side of the family hasn't got anything so specific and in fact we have a birth date origin of a couple of years. It sounds like you have much more precise information than I do.
However, the family stories that come down to my children and to me do talk about James being a member of a rather prominent family in Manchester. They also say that he got his education and some money from them. They believe that he was a younger son of the family who "went bad" and that if he needed it, when he was in Australia he was able to get help from the family in the UK, at least initially.
Given where he ended up and how easily he was able to rise in Australian Society I would expect that his education was certainly quite reasonable. He certainly had extremely good hand writing etc. So while I certainly wonder about his origins I am not sure that the original details about his origins and his link to the family is incorrect. It certainly fits very well with the family stories. But maybe once I have more information I may come to be more of your mind.

Cheers,
Tina

[garstonite]

Hiya Tina
James was in fact the oldest Brother - he had Samuel and Robert as younger brothers
see my last post
only my opinion - but I am very curious about James Sidebottom bap dec 1790 at St Thomas ,Ardwick
....it looks to me like he was buried 1815 aged 25 in St Thomas churchyard ...

[Tina Bean]

Yes, I can see why your list gives you James as the eldest but I still don't have as much information as you do. I need more to see why you have come to the conclusions that you have. For example, I have James born about 1789. I also have nothing specific about where he is born other than 'Greater Manchester'. You obviously have more information that leads you to believe that Ardwick is the place and that there are other siblings. Help me to understand your reasoning for this so that I can also understand your concerns. This family is not one I have done a lot of research into and only looked at what I have for him today for the first time in about 10 years when I was last working on this family. At that time I had found two other potential sets of parents for James Sidebottom based on the information that I actually had at the time. Those sets of parents were; 29 Oct 1786 to Samuel and Martha Sidebottom nee Morgan married at the Manchester Cathedral 26 Feb 1786 and one christened 26 Nov 1786 to Joseph and Betty Sidebottom nee Chadwick marriage 21 Oct 1784.  Both of which are a couple of years out on the projected date but not impossible.

So what lead you to the conclusion Ardwick? Can I get copies of that information somewhere? If not can you send me to links that will help me understand your conclusions?

I have one set of records for James Sidebottom's convictions, not the quite extensive up and down that you have. Are you able to point me in the right direction for those as well. That way I can read them, make sure I have that information and make sure that I have any other facts that I seem to be missing.

Do you have an online tree somewhere that I can see with details of John Smith? Mine is at http://gransdenfamily.com/ with James Sidebottom very specifically at http://www.gransdenfamily.com/gransdenf/pafg119.htm#3667 do a search for John or Smith and you should find him, there are a few on that page.

Cheers,
Tina

[garstonite]

Hiya Tina - I am only going on the info on the first post by Brutus who states James was baptised in dec 1790 at St Thomas ,Ardwick - I the went to the St Thomas ,Ardwick, Lancashire Online Parish site which then gave me the info ....I am not connected in any way - just thought you and Brutus should see the probable siblings records at St Thomas church 
a very interesting man - but a shady character to say the least ....