Adoption papers?

[Paulann]

Hi

On the 1851 my gt grandmother Mary Ann aged 4 and sister Eliza age 5 were living in a workshouse.

In 1861, they are living with a family under a different surname. I have discovered their adopted mother's maiden name is McDonald. Mary Ann's marriage certificate gives the father's names as Charles McDonald.

What I would like to know is, would these young girls have to be officially adopted, even within a family? If so, will there be adoption papers somewhere? The workhouse does not have records for 1851.

Many thanks
Pauline

[suey]

Sorry Pauline the answer is no, official records of adoptions were not kept before 1927...

Are there any records at all for the workhouse between 1851 and 1861?, they could have left anywhen in that 10 year period so it might be worth a look...

Suey

[Valda]

In 1851 they seem to be at the North Surrey Industrial School Annerley/Penge.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?NorthSurreySD/NorthSurreySD.shtml

The records for this institution does not go back to the 1840/50s, but as their birthplace was Chelsea have you checked the Chelsea poor law union records

e.g.
registers of young persons 1851-1859
settlement examinations 1842-1907
lists of paupers 1852-1855
at the LMA

A bit of a long shot but you might be lucky.

What information does their birth certificates give you (if they have been found)?

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

Thomas McDonald aged 8 born Chelsea was also at the North Surrey Industrial School on the 1851 census.

There was also a Thomas McDonald aged 35 and a William McDonald (born Chelsea - the only one it appears with a birth registration) in St Lukes Chelsea workhouse on the same census.

Regards

Valda

[Paulann]

Thank you Valda and Suey for your help.

With regard to the birth cert. I have already wasted £7. Mary McDonald is quite a common name. Is it Mary Ann [workhouse] or Mary as she calls herself from 1861? Was she born in Woolwich [1861 census] or Chelsea? The cert I have is Greenwich. The nearest I have to Chelsea is Lambeth so I think I will have to take a chance and try again.

I did notice Thomas aged 8 born Chelsea but I have researched the adoptive parents and could find no connection to McDonald. I have not noticed a William in Chelsea, will look into it.

So, now I will check Chelsea poor law union records and get back to the North Surrey Industrial School, that will keep me quiet for a while.

I think I may have found her mother, sadly in the Brompton Consumption Hospital.

Thanks again, Pauline

[Valda]

Children who were 'fostered' out from poor law union establishments didn't necessarily go to families who had any connection to their own.

What information did Eliza give on her marriage - if she married? Was it consistent with the details Mary Ann gave on her marriage?

Regards

Valda

[Paulann]

Hello Valda

Unfortunately I have been unable to find a marriage for Eliza/Elizabeth yet. After leaving the workhouse, she is reffered to as Elizabeth. If you have access to the 1861 census Mary and Elizabeth are living with Elizabeth and John Abbott in Greenwich, Kent. At first I thought the adoptive mother may have been their real mother but she is only aged 33, the girls are 18 and 16[though not impossible I suppose].  Also mother is only recently married when these girls move in and she goes on to have her own children.

I have the adoptive parents marriage certificate and Elizabeth is daughter of William McDonald. Thought it too much of a coincidence not to be related.

Pauline

[Valda]

Pauline

Can I ask a few questions to clarify?
How have you proved the connection between the 1851 census workhouse entry, the 1861 census Abbott entry and the 1872 marriage?

Marriages Mar 1872 
COOPER  William    Woolwich  1d 968   
McDONALD  Mary     Woolwich  1d 968

On the 1871 census there is a daughter Mary Abbott aged 23 (but then the wife Elizabeth Abbott's age has moved from 1861 when it was 33 to only 40 in 1871) with the family. Who was this Mary?

Emily the oldest child on the 1861 census that could be a child of 'John' and Elizabeth's marriage has a possible birth registration in 1853.

Births Jun 1853   
Abbott  Emily Jane     Greenwich  1d 312   
Abbott  Emily Jane     Greenwich  1d 512

John was unmarried on the 1851 census. When did his marriage to Elizabeth occur?

Elizabeth, the wife of 'John', gives her birthplace as Highgate on the 1871 census and again in 1881 (when aged 54). John's name on that census is given as Robert J.

Regards

Valda

[Paulann]

Hi Valda

You are going to wish you hadnt asked! Here goes,

William Cooper and Mary McDonald are my gt grandparents. When I received the marriage certificate a couple of years ago I spent a long time eliminating all Mary McDonald's born in the Greenwich/Woolwich/Plumstead areas. I then when back to the marriage certificate and started on the two witness's, John and Emily Abbott. This led me to the Abbott family. I then assumed, like other of my family researches that this Mary Abbott, correct place and date of birth, had a change her surname on the remarriage of her mother. So I started working backwards. Elizabeth married John Abbott in November, 1852, Rotherhithe. You probably did not find her as she married under the name Dykes [discovered from Emily's birth certificate] . So she was not Charles Mcdonald's widow as I had expected but the widow of a Mr Dykes who I just cannot find. But what it did tell me was her father's name William McDonald. Realising Mary and Elizabeth could not be the children of either John or Elizabeth I started searching the 1851 census for a Mary and Elizabeth McDonald. The two children in the workhouse were the only ones most likely. I had moved my research to Surrey as I think this is where Charles was an apprentice in 1841, and may have died before 1851 as I cant find him. Phew!

regards, Pauline