Touzel/Bird/Gros/Howe - Liverpool connection c 1857

[steve263]

Hello. I'm trying to trace my g g grandmother/father, Sarah Bird and Charles Howe, who married in Liverpool in 1857. One of their witnesses was an Anne Touzel(? or similar), who may have been Anne Bird, possibly Sarah's sister, who I think married John Touzel earlies in 1857.

Since all my other researches For Sarah and Charles have so far reached dead ends (I can't find them in any records after the 1861 census in Liverpool), I was hoping that there may be a Touzel/Bird family connection that someone in the Channel Islands might know about.

There is also a Sarah Gross, aged 16 months, listed on the 1861 census return, and I wondered whether this might be a mistranscription of Le Gros or similar.

Any possible leads very gratefully received!

[Hill]

Hi

Could you clarify something for me please?

Are you looking for Sarah Bird prior to 1861? I've looked in the 1861 census to try and establish her place and date of birth but I can't find an entry.

I am going to the Archive Centre in Jersey next week so I can do some lookups for you.

Stewart

[MaryA]

To give the background for Hill
1861
11 Court Porter Street, St Martin, Liverpool
Eliza Bird Head Widow 47 Ireland
Ann daur Widow 20[8] Ireland
James son Un 16 Labourer Liverpool
Sarah How daur Mar 20 Liverpool
Charles Son in law Mar 29 Sailor Rochester
Sarah Gross granddau 16 months Liverpool
RG9; Piece: 2656; Folio: 84; Page: 31

I'm wondering if this is them in 1851, the ages of the two are similar but not birthplaces ....
78 Finch Street, Islington, Liverpool
John Hand Head M 74 Upholsterer employing 2 men, 4 women, 2 boys Lancashire Liverpool
Frances Wife M 71 Liverpool
Elizabeth Bird daur Widow 39 Widow Liverpool
Sarah Bird granddaur 8 Lancashire Manchester
Elizabeth Davies servant 26 Cheshire Trafford.
HO107; Piece: 2184; Folio: 256; Page: 30

Coincidence of occupation ?
1851 25 Court 3 House Crosshall Street, St George, Liverpool
Ellen Bridgeman Head Mar 40 Lodging House Keeper Ireland
Ann Bird Visitor U 20 Upholsterer Ireland
and half a dozen other visitors.
HO107; Piece: 2180; Folio: 79; Page: 70

I see a possible James of the right age (26)  living 26 Titchfield Street with wife Ellen (25) and daughter 1 year old Elizabeth Ann in 1871 (all born Liverpool  RG10; Piece: 3758; Folio: 171; Page: 55) , but I don't see one of the right age in 1851.
And just to cause a bit more confusion in 1871 I find this entry
24 Raymond Street, St Martin, LIverpool Elizabeth Bird Head Wid 53 no birthplace given
This entry, although crossed through, is immediately before Ditchfield Street, RG10; Piece: 3759; Folio: 122; Page: 53.  Either Titchfield or Ditchfield could be a misspelling and be the same street.
Hope this helps

[Hill]

Yes, I can see where you are coming from now.

Sadly I can only help with the Jersey end and unfortunately I don't know of any Bird/Touzel connections. The thoughts that have crossed my mind though are:

1. Could Charles and Sara have died between 1861 and 1871?
2. Could they have emigrated, possibly to Ireland as the family has Irish connections?

However, what has made you conclude that Charles and Sarah are your g g grandparents? Do you have any documentation?

Stewart

[MaryA]

Discovered another entry in 1871 which seems to connect the 1851 family

Richmond Vale 20, Walton, Liverpool
Charles Hand Head Unm 50 Member of the Stock Exchange Liverpool
Elizabeth Bird Sister Widow 61 Annuitant Liverpool
Margaret Carew Servant Unm 16 Domestic Servant Liverpool
RG10; Piece: 3833; Folio: 98; Page: 10

I think a big question should be that if they are definitely Steve's ancestors then he should know their child's name and probable birthdate, this would be helpful in searching for them.

[Arranroots]

Hi guys

Are you aware of this thread:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,234446.msg1257168.html#msg1257168

There seems to be more info there that might help.

Really not sure how helpful it is to suggest that this family went to the Channel Isles  - is that simply because you could not find them?  They could be mistranscribed or anywhere in the world!

kind regards, Arranroots 

[MaryA]

Oh Heck!  I always like to know whatever is available before I start looking.

Well since Sarah's father is William and we haven't come across this Elizabeth married to anybody as yet, then at least some of the research could just be valid.

I will stop now and so won't waste any more time.

[steve263]

Thanks for the replies and the help/offers of help.

This is what I have so far.

My g grandfather, William Charles Howe Platt

From birth certificate (Q2 1854, Liverpool 8b 132)
Born 10 June 1864. Son of Charles Howe, master mariner, and Sarah Howe, formerly Bird, 51 Kay Street, Liverpool.

1871 census at 33 Beloe Street, Toxteth, Liverpool
Listed as Charles Hawe, age 6, nurse child
Living with Elizabeth and John Platt

1881 census at 33 Beloe Street, Toxteth, Liverpool
Listed as Charles H Platt, 16, adopted son
Living with Elizabeth and John Platt

In the 1861 census, his mother and father appear to be listed as living with Sarah’s mother at:
11 Court Porter Street, St Martin, Liverpool
Eliza Bird head widow 47 Ireland
Ann daur widow 20[8] Ireland
James son un 16 labourer Liverpool
Sarah How daur mar 20 Liverpool
Charles son in law mar 29 sailor Rochester
Sarah Gross granddau 16 months Liverpool
RG9; Piece: 2656; Folio: 84; Page: 31

From marriage certificate of Sarah Bird and Charles Howe (Q3 1857, Liverpool 8b 2):
Married 15 Aug 1857, parish church of St Alban
Charles Howe, 28, bachelor, mariner, Eldon Place, father William Howe, labourer
Sarah Bird, 20, spinster, no profession given, Eldon Place, father William Bird, clerk in a merchant’s office
Witnesses: Henry Johnston(?), Anne Touzel’s mark

Earlier in 1857, marriage between Anne Bird and John Touzel (Q1 Liverpool 8b 4):
Married 15 March 1857, parish church of St Alban
John Touzel, 23, bachelor, mariner, Eldon Place, father Paul Touzel, labourer
Anne Bird, 20, spinster, no profession given, Eldon Place, father William Bird, clerk
Witnesses: James Sutcliffe, Elizabeth Sutcliffe’s mark

I have a likely line of descent to living descendants for James Bird, who appears in the 1861 census, but no trace of Sarah and Charles after the birth of my g grandfather. I have also been unable to find any trace of Anne and John Touzel after their marriage in 1857.

I was trying the Channel Islands connection (because of the Touzel name and the unexplained Le Gross grandchild in the 1861 census) on the off chance that there may be some lead that would help me in finding out what happened to Sarah and Charles. At the moment, the most likely thing seems to be that they emigrated, perhaps to the same place as Anne and John Touzel and possibly with Sarah and Anne’s mother, leaving my g grandfather behind. But of course that is pure speculation at the moment.

[steve263]

MaryA - Many thanks for the research, which is helpful. Sorry, I should have cross-referenced the original thread.

Re the 1871 census crossed-out listing for Elizabeth Bird, that got me very excited for a while. The James Bird at 26 Titchfield Street is the one that I've got down as Sarah's likely brother, with a connection to living descendants. The fact that an Elizabeth Bird was listed as living next door (albeit then crossed out) seemed to confirm that connection. However, it looks as though this was actually No 2, 4 Court, Titchfield Street, and the name is Birch. So near and yet ...