Church of Scotland- Completed with thanks

[JAP]

Hi Helen,

I do have the birth certificate of my G.Grandfather Thomas son of John and Catharine.  I had wrote this down and did not realize I had not added it until I read the e-mails, but that is still no help with trying to find info about Murdoch.

What was John's occupation on the birth certificate?

I did get John and Catharine, Murdoch and Jeans marriage announcements

What did these 4 records (John & Catharine in Edinburgh and in Gorbals; Murdoch & Jean in Edinburgh and in Greenock) say?  Just in case they might give us even the slightest clue.

  ...  The info I had said Murdoch and Jean's children were born at Stornoway, so I think Dugald is the right family member and maybe John who was born in 1804 is my G.G. Grandfather,

There is certainly a Stornoway connexion given that it is the birthplace of Jane (MACLEOD) SYME and of (as I recall) at least one of her children.  Yes, I too think that Dugald Ferguson MCLEOD is a son of Murdoch & Jean - but the problem we keep running into is finding proof of the connexion back to Murdoch & Jean.  It might be interesting to download the OPR entry for Dugald to see whether there is any further info about Murdoch - occupation, residence ...

but in the 1841 census I found it said he was born in 1806 so not sure  ...

I don't think you've mentioned having the 1841 census - what are the details?

  ...  I found George and Jane's marriage on IGI but could not figure out how to do the parent search for the christening of their children, any help would certainly be appreciated .

In this case, all you need do is go to the IGI screen then enter George and Syme in the father boxes, and Jane and McLeod in the mother boxes.  Then select British Isles as the region.  Nothing else.  Then click Search.  Up will come 8 records - 7 extracted from the OPRs and 1 submitted by a member of the LDS.

Perhaps I should mention that in Scotland they usually (though not, unfortunately, in that Stornoway batch!) do enter the mother's name and in full.
For England it is rare for the mother's surname to be shown so it is best not to provide it.  Fortunately it is recorded for the children of John McLeod & Catherine Syme in Liverpool (I guess because it was a Presbyterian church with a Scottish tradition!).
When you do a parent search, you can also, if you wish, define further parameters e.g. the country, the county, a range of years ...

You must be suffering from information overload by now!

But if you can bear to make another post, I think it would be a good idea to start a new thread asking if anybody can do a lookup of the Canongate MIs for Murdoch MCLEOD said to have died about 1820.

All the best,

JAP 

[MonicaL]

Hi Helen

You could try searching this site www.scotsfind.org/ to search for Murdoch's OPR death entry. Excellent site for Edinburgh records for the period you are looking at.

Regards.

Monica 

[mcleodsyme]

Hi JAP

Johns occupation on the birth certificate as commercial agent.

On Scotlandspeople in the marriage announcement it said he was a Merchant in Glasgow and Catharine was the daughter of James Syme of Northfield.

In the 1841 census his age was 35 estimated birth year 1806, born in Scotland but living in England in Middlesex county, registration district St. Pancras sub district Regents Park very hard to read his occupation but I think it says indp.

On Scotsfind  in the Canongate marriages and  also Scotlandspeople it said Murdoch McLeod, cooper and Jean Ferguson daughter of John Ferguson of Greenock

It would be just my luck that Murdoch was married twice I'm having enough trouble finding info about him and his family now.  In the info Tom sent about the marriages of a Murdoch McLeod # 4 does seem to be the most propable.

Thanks Monica I did find that site and found the marriages of Murdoch and Jean and also James Syme and Helen Knox

Thanks

Helen McLeod/Syme

[JAP]

Hi Helen,

Here we go again ...

John in London
It is interesting that John was in London in 1841 (given that his two children were b/bap in Liverpool).

Do you know when and where John died?  One would think that (though perhaps his death was sudden/unexpected - he was quite a young man), as a man of apparent means, he would have left a Will.  I couldn't find one on SP so I wonder if it was in England.  Here is a link which leads to a link to the National Archives research guide on wills:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/wills/step1.htm
Might be worth searching English wills?
Also one has to wonder whether he might have been buried in London, and whether there might be an MI there ...

Incidentally, ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 in the 1841 census.  So an age of 35 for John could mean he was anything from 35 to 39 which would fit with the Stornoway 1804 baptism of a John MACLEOD, father Murdo - but MCLEOD (however spelled), John MCLEOD, and Murdo/Murdoch MCLEOD are such common names that ...

However, it would certainly be tantalising if you were to look at that OPR entry (?and that of Dugald Ferguson MCLEOD, pa Murdo) and were to find further details about Murdo.  Especially if they were to state that he was a cooper and/or of Edinburgh    But very disappointing if there were no further details at all  or if there were and they stated that Murdo was (say) a fisherman or an ag lab of Stornoway 

It really would be great to find proof that John who married Catherine SYME was the son of Murdoch the cooper.

Murdoch MCLEOD, cooper of Edinburgh (and, perhaps, Stornoway?)
I wonder whether anyone knows whether there might be relevant apprenticeship records and/or trades guild records?

Disappointing that his death/burial is not on that scotsfind site (as far as I could see).  But it's not time to give up even on Canongate/Holyrood.  I notice that there are various entries in the Canongate film notes in the FHL catalogue - might there be more than one register?
FHL Film #1067746 includes 'Burials (Holyrood Chapel Royal), 1621-1819'
#1067748 includes 'Burials, 1811-1830'
#1067750 includes 'Burials, 1820-1854 (indexed). Burials (Holyrood Chapel Royal), 1820-1854'
#1067751 includes 'Burial index, 1744-1862'

And Scottish MIs are yet to be explored.
Some kind RootsChatter might be willing to check out the various booklets of MIs - probably starting with all the Edinburgh ones - for Murdoch.  It would be fantastic to find an informative MI.

Best regards,

JAP
PS: Just for interest, did you ever find Catherine on the 1851?

[JAP]

Helen,

As relief from the MCLEODs   

Helen KNOX later SYME
I don't know whether you had further information on Helen before Monica posted that great scotsfind site?

If not, it tells you that, at her marriage in 1783 to James SYME, her father was George KNOX of Craig Leith (sic) and was deceased.

This suggests, from the IGI, that Helen was the daughter of George KNOX & Christian ANDERSON, bap 8 Sep 1764 Canongate.  This is supported by Scottish naming patterns with Helen (KNOX) SYME's first daughter being named Christian and second son George.

This leads to this marriage on the scotsfind site:
'ANDERSON Christina, of parish of Currie, and George Knox, taxman of the King's Park in this parish 30 Mar 1754'
(Taxman = tacksman i.e. one who holds a lease of land - usually of a considerable area of land)
And the death of Christian/Christina on that site:
'1822 Sep 12.  ANDERSON Mrs Christian, Relict, George KNOX Esq of Craigleish (sic), (age) 88, (cause) old age.
Unfortunately, there are a couple of possible baptisms for Christian in Currie - 1834 and 1835.

And on Wills & Testaments on SP:
George Knox, 16/05/1782, of Craigleith, TD

Presumably George moved from the King's Park (Holyrood Park) to Craigleith (as it appears on modern maps and on the oldmaps site) at some stage.

As you say, it looks like the SYMEs and co (including KNOX) can be taken well back (there's obviously heaps more information out there).  But the MCLEODs more difficult.

And I guess you could always start on FERGUSON ...

Cheers,

JAP

[mcleodsyme]

Hi JAP

My Aunts did get some of their information from letters sent to their Grandfather Thomas Syme McLeod from his cousin in Edinburgh and she said John McLeod  was a tea merchant and died of cholora on a trip home from South America and was buried at sea and the date was 1844.  She also said that her Grandfather Murdo died in 1820 so I guess this was how they knew to check the date, it would have been a lot easier if they had photocopied something.  In her letters she was always trying to get my G. Grandfather Thomas (Syme) Mcleod to come back to Scotland to claim something not sure what and  in his letter he was to say Thomas only living son of Murdoch and Murdoch only son of John McLeod (another John) of the Isle of Lewis

I did find another Dugald Mcleod on IGI and it said on this one his father was Murdoch Mcleod and mother was Jean Ferguson but of course a different date this one said 17 March 1807 the other one said 27 March 1806 but at least they have his mothers name on the 1807 one.  The cousin who wrote the letters also said Dugald went to the University of Edinburgh and became a surgeon at the age of 18  went to India were he died.  This cousin was 80 when she wrote these letters in 1912  so not sure how correct her dates are.

I did find the information  about Helen (Knox) Syme and did think that would be the correct Parents because of the names,  it certainly helps when trying to find someone to have the same names carried on.

I did find Catharine (Syme) McLeod in the 1851 census, she was living with her brother Thomas Syme in Edinburgh and it said she was the widow of John McLeod also her 2 sons were also on the report.
 
I don't think I would have any luck with the Fergusons according to the cousin who wrote the letters she said her Grandmothers name was Jane but like the french she always called herself Jean so it could certainly get confusing.

Thanks again

Helen McLeod/Syme

It sounds like Tom is having as much trouble as my family with the Mcleods and Symes.  John McLeod son of Murdoch married Catharine Syme.   George Syme married Jane McLeod daughter of Murdoch.

[JAP]

Helen,

Just a very very quick reply (you keep coming up with further snippets of invaluable information  ).

Jane and Jean are totally interchangeable in Scotland (and do be aware that the name is indexed as the same name in the IGI!).

Some say that Janet is also interchangeable with Jane & Jean but I haven't found it so - thougn Janet & Jessie I've found to be interchangeable (the IGI doesn't seem to know any of this!).

(Of course I'd say this because I have ancestors Jane/Jean and Janet/Jessie).

However, that Jane/Jean are interchangeable is without question.

JAP
PS: Re Dugald.
The 1806 record is an entry formally extracted/copied by the LDS from the OPR.
The 1807 record, however, is a record submitted by an LDS member - so easy for them to make an error.
The former are usually reliable and the latter (obviously) much less so.
I'd certainly be checking out the OPR entries on SP for both Dugald and John!
And I'd try to find anything on UEdin records - I'm sure they'll exist if Dugald graduated in Medicine.  Do a Google.

PPS: And I'm still thinking that John MCLEOD might have had a Will ...   or an MI.  And that Murdoch might have had an MI.

PPPS: Tracing the SYMEs back further would obviously be a piece of cake (even from the scotsfind site).  But it might be more fun to try the KNOXs and the FERGUSONs if the MCLEODs turn out to be a dead end 

PPPPS: Helen, perhaps there's a fortune awaiting you out there ....   

[mcleodsyme]

Hi JAP

Thanks about the record of Dugald< I had thought the second one with both names would be more accurate.

As for the fortune. no such luck I think the Mcleods married people with money and any money they had was spent.

Thanks again

Helen McLeod/Syme

[mcleodsyme]

Hi JAP

I'm sorry to keep bothering you but you seem to know a lot about Scoutland.

The cousin that wrote the letters I mentioned from Edinburgh said the weather was not good for someone her age but she expected to die soon and was to be buried beside her sister at Morningside cemetery.

I was wondering if you knew if there was a cemetery called Morningside and it was actually in Edinburgh.  I don't want my niece looking all over Edinburgh and it is located somewhere else and not called Morningside anymore.

Thank You again for all your help

Helen McLeod/Syme