Church of Scotland- Completed with thanks

[tidybooks]

Hi M/S & Jap,

 Have you any certificates that are verified, trying to back up your claims re Murdoch and his son John is proving very difficult. How far back have you got with verified info. I feel youmay have to back to more modern times and start again, say around 1855 to 1880, when SP could prove actual tree.

I think you really need to try and get proof before moving on, hope this helps.

Tom

[JAP]

Hi again Helen,

If I were you ...

I would want to view/download (from ScotlandsPeople) four OPR entries.
Two for the marriage of John & Catherine - probably Banns called in the parishes of both the bride and the groom:
*Catharine SYME (father James) and John MCLEOD, 28 Feb 1831, Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian
*Catherine SYM and John MCLEOD, 26 Feb 1831, Gorbals, Lanarkshire
And, for completeness:
*Murdoch MCLEOD and Jean FERGUSON, 20 Feb 1797, Canongate, Edinburgh, Midlothian
*Murdoch MACLEOD and Jane FERGUSON, 25 Feb 1797, West or Old Parish, Greenock, Renfrew
These entries might not help - but you won't know until you've seen them.

I would get the birth certificate of Thomas Syme MCLEOD:
Thomas Syme McLEOD, birth, March quarter 1838, Liverpool, Vol 20, Page 274
He is your direct ancestor so I'd think you'd want to have his birth certificate?
And it should give the occupation of his father.

I would want to find John (remember that MCLEOD could be spelled variously), Catherine, Murdoch (b Dec 1833 Liverpool), and Thomas Syme (b Dec 1837 Liverpool) in the 1841 census.  This would give an idea of the ages of both John and Catherine.

I would want to find Catherine MCLEOD and sons Murdoch and Thomas Syme in the 1851 census in order to confirm that she was a widow i.e. that John had died.  Do you know what happened to Catherine?  Did she die in Scotland and, if so, when - it would be good to have her death certificate in the hope that it would confirm that she was the daughter of James SYME & Helen KNOX.

John's death certificate would be no help (assuming he died in England - and even if he died in Scotland, that was before Statutory Registration) except that it would give his age and occupation.

However, unless there is some clue in OPR marriage entries, none of this helps in establishing John's parentage.  Though the fact that he named his first son Murdoch does suggest (in line with Scottish naming patterns) that his father's name was Murdoch.

You believe that John was a brother of the Jane MCLEOD, b ca 1803, Stornoway, who married George SYME in 1827 in Edinburgh Parish.  There doesn't seem to be a way of proving this.  You say that Jane's death certificate (this should be able to be viewed/downloaded on ScotlandsPeople - a free search on SP finds the death of a Jane SYME, age 71, other name McLeod, in Prestonpans in 1873) lists her parents as John MCLEOD & Jean FERGUSON.  However, remember that the information on death certificates is often unreliable - the informant may not know the correct details and may well be quite upset at the time.  So this could simply be an error.

And, of course, you could order in the Canongate parish film to your nearest LDS FHC to check whether you can find a record of the burial ca 1820 of Murdoch/John ...

None of this is likely to provide proof but at least you will have the start of a paper trail which confirms much of what your aunts noted down.

All the best,

JAP
PS: A free search on SP (refining parameters) shows that George SYME lived to a good age - there's the death of a George SYME in Prestonpans in 1886 with age given as 96.

[JAP]

Some further thoughts.

Births/Baptisms
Unfortunately, I can't see, in the IGI, the birth of a Jane/Jean MCLEOD ca 1803 in Stornoway.
There's a possibility for John - John MACLEOD bap 25 Jul 1804 Stornoway, father Murdo MACLEOD.  But McLeod, John, and Murdo/Murdoch are terribly common there, and absence of the name of the mother doesn't help ...
Given the middle name, the following is a likely child of Murdoch & Jane/Jean - Dugald Ferguson MCLEOD, bap 17 Mar 1806 Stornoway, father Murdo MCLEOD.

Wills
There are some relevant entries in the Wills and Testaments section of ScotlandsPeople - these can be viewed/downloaded for a fee.
* Murdoch MacLeod, 04/09/1873, residing at Bradford in Simcoe County in the Province of Ontario, Canada West, Inventory
* George Syme, 17/04/1886, of Northfield, Commander R.N., d 25/02/1886 at Northfield House, Prestonpans, testate
* Christian Syme, 07/03/1888, Northfield Prestonpans d 02/08/1887 at Northfield, intestate
* James Syme, 06/06/1822, of Northfield, Eik (an eik is a codicil)
and
    James Syme, 31/05/1822, Esquire of Northfield, Additional Inventory
and
   James Syme, 12/05/1820, of Northfield, TT (testament testamentar)
and
   James Syme, 19/04/1819, Esquire of Northfield, Inventory; Trust Disposition; Settlement
* Helen Syme, 11/08/1846, alias Knox, widow of James Knox Esq of Northfield, Inventory

You might find others of interest ...

JAP

[mcleodsyme]

Hi JAP

I have been busy downloading the information you suggested and so far everything matches what I had received so I guess correct and at least I have some proof which I was looking for.

I did download Jane's death certificate and her son Andrew gave the information so he might not know her fathers name since he had been dead 50 years.

I think I will have  to pay to get the information on Murdoch from the National Archives in Scotland which is something I need and at least that will take me back to the 17 hundreds since the notes said he died in 1820 and was in his seventies.

Thank you very much for all your help

Helen McLeod/Syme

[JAP]

Hi again Helen,

I'm puzzled by what you (and Ann) are hoping might be found by the NAS (National Archives of Scotland).

Death/Burial Records
As I understand it, you are looking for a death entry for Murdoch MCLEOD.

This would (if it exists) be expected to be found in an Old Parish Register of the Established Church of Scotland.

The OPRs are held by the GROS (General Register Office of Scotland) at New Register House in Edinburgh (not by the NAS which is located at General Register House also in Edinburgh).

For information about GROS see:
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/

GROS has contracted with SOL (Scotland on Line) to put records online at ScotlandsPeople.  The OPRs have quite recently been added to the online records but only Births/Baptisms and Marriages/Banns; Deaths/Burials are not online.

Films of the OPRs can be viewed/searched in person at GROS.  As far as I am aware GROS does not carry out research - you would need to employ a private researcher for this.

However, there is another way of viewing and searching the OPRs.  The LDS (Latter Day Saints) have filmed OPRs; so another method of seeing the OPRs is to order relevant films in to your nearest LDS Family History centre.  For locations of the FHCs see:
http://www.familysearch.org
The people at these centres are, in my experience, very helpful.

A couple of problems now arise:
a) not all parishes recorded deaths/burials
b) even where they are recorded, information is often extremely sketchy
c) you do not know which is the relevant parish (!)

As you believe that the entry seen by your aunts indicated that Murdoch died in Edinburgh, I have made the suggestion that you start by ordering in the OPR for Canongate.
I checked in the Family Library catalogue on FamilySearch and Canongate does include death/burial records.
To find this out go to the FamilySearch site and click on the tab 'Family History Library Catalog'; then click on Place Search; then enter Edinburgh as the place, then click on Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland; then click on 'Church records'; then scroll down and click of 'Parish registers of Cannongate Church, Edinburgh, 1564-1872'; then click on 'View Film Notes'.  You will now be able to see the Film numbers and what each film contains.

If you don't find Murdoch in this film, I guess you would then need to try other parishes ...

Even if you do find Murdoch, the information might not be of much use especially in your quest to prove that he is the father of John who married Catherine SYME ...

Monumental Inscriptions
This is another good source of death/burial information.
Booklets of pre-1855 MIs for much of Scotland have been published.
See the Online Shop (scroll down to Monumental Inscriptions, then select Lothians - you will see that MIs for 'Canongate Churchyard, Holyrood Chapel Royal' have been published) on the Scottish Genealogy Society website:
http://www.scotsgenealogy.com/
The booklets might well be held by your local genealogical society.
Or you might wish to post, here on RC, a request for a lookup ...

Regards,

JAP

[JAP]

Hi Helen,

Yet another post from me!

National Archives of Scotland (NAS)[/i]

The NAS is online at:
http://www.nas.gov.uk/

The NAS catalogue can be searched at:
http://www.dswebhosting.info/NAS/DServe.exe?dsqApp=Site20&dsqCmd=Index.tcl

I have had a quick search for anything relating to Murdoch/Murdo MCLEOD/MACLEOD/ Jean FERGUSON/ John MCLEOD/ Catherine SYME but nothing jumped out at me.
You might find something ...

There are, however, some results for the SYMEs.
Several records (routine accounts mainly) relating to the SYME family, slaters of Edinburgh.

And the following interesting results:
GD282/12/140
Sederunt Book of the Marriage Contract Trust of Matthew Brown Orr, Merchant, Glasgow and Clara Macauley Syme, daughter of George Syme of Northfield - Oct 1869
GD282/12/180
Sederunt Book Testamentary Trust of George Syme of Northfield, Commander RN,.  Died February 1886 - c 1886
GD282/12/181
Sederunt Book Testamentary Trust of Andrew Syme, Agent, Bank of Scotland, St Andrews, Son of above George Syme.  Died April 1901 - c 1901

Here is an explanation of the term 'Sederunt Book':
http://www.scan.org.uk/knowledgebase/topics/trustsederuntbooks_topic.htm

If you wanted to get these records, then my experience has been that - if you have the reference (which you do) - the NAS will quote by email a price for photocopying the papers plus postage.

JAP

[JAP]

Hi Helen,

And finally ...   

Downloads
Did you download the four OPR records - two for the marriage of Murdoch MCLEOD & Jean FERGUSON in 1797, and two for the marriage of John MCLEOD & Catherine SYME in 1831?

If you tell us what they say, it might help us to help you 

Have you found the death of Catherine (SYME) MCLEOD?

JAP
PS:
Yes, I agree that Jane (MCLEOD) SYME's son Andrew (the informant of her death) could well have made a mistake in the name of his grandfather; especially as the grandfather had (we believe from your aunts' notes) died in 1820, well before Andrew's birth.   Even Andrew's father (George - Jane's widower - by then ca 83) might never have known his father-in-law as he married Jane in 1827.
PPS:
In your most recent post you have given additional information from your aunts' notes i.e. that Murdoch was in his 70s when he died in 1820.  This makes one suspect that the marriage (if it is the same Murdoch) to Jean FERGUSON in 1797 might well have been his second marriage.

[mcleodsyme]

Hi JAP

Always glad to hear from you I always learn more info on were to search.

I did e-mail the national archives and they said they did not have the parish records and to try GROS.

I do have the birth certificate of my G.Grandfather Thomas son of John and Catharine.  I had wrote this down and did not realize I had not added it until I read the e-mails, but that is still no help with trying to find info about Murdoch.

I did get John and Catharine, Murdoch and Jeans marriage announcements.  I have a lot better luck researching the Syme side of my family and I did get the wills and testaments of the Symes from Scotlands people, some are certainly hard to read but at least the names are familiar so on the right track.

I got George and Jane's marriage also Dugald's christening from IGI.  The info I had said Murdoch and Jean's children were born at Stornoway, so I think Dugald is the right family member and maybe John who was born in 1804 is my G.G. Grandfather, but in the 1841 census I found it said he was born in 1806 so not sure, as you said it would certainly help if they added the mothers name.

I have only had my computer for a little over a year so not very good at finding things.  I found George and Jane's marriage on IGI but could not figure out how to do the parent search for the christening of their children, any help would certainly be appreciated .

Thank you

Helen McLeod/Syme

[tidybooks]

Hi Helen & JAP,

Taking up JAP's theme, of Murdoch being married before done a search for Murdoch M*cLeod on SP between dates of 1766 and 1800. It threw up a few possibilities, No 4 Janet Graham in Stornoway in 1782. What really got me was in 1797, the 2 marriages one to Jean Ferguson at Canongte in Edinburgh on 20/02/1797 and 5 days later a marriage to Jane Ferguson at Greenock Old or West, could this be same personm and she is registering her marriage in home parish, also.


No   Date   Surname   Forename                    Spouse Name       Parish

1      28/09/1773   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   BARBARA LOVE   Southend
2      04/06/1778   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   ANN MCLEOD   Aberdeen
3      12/12/1780   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   ELSPET MCDONALD   Old Machar
4      07/05/1782   MACLEOD   MURDOCH   JANET GRAHAM   Stornoway
5      29/11/1786   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   JANET DONALD   Edinburgh
6      04/01/1788   MACLEOD   MURDOCH   BARBARA MACKAY   Durness
7      06/01/1791   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   KATHARINE WILLIAMSON   Edinburgh
8      17/05/1794   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   ANNE MCKENZIE   Ardclach
9       28/01/1795   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   MARGARET DOIG   Oathlaw
10     01/05/1795   MACLEOD   MURDOCH   CHRISTIAN MACAY   Greenock Old or West
11     20/02/1797   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   JEAN FERGUSON   Canongate
12     25/02/1797   MACLEOD   MURDOCH   JANE FERGUSON   Greenock Old or West
13     16/06/1798   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   JANET MCLEOD   Greenock New or Middle
14     07/10/1798   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   ANNE CORBET   Old Machar
15     21/03/1800   MCLEOD   MURDOCH   CHRISTIAN MCIVER   Stornoway


Tom