Transcription Request: Elizabeth Jude??

[JAP]

Congratulations Carol - very well done!

But it does point up the difficulties of helping with a query when all the information is not provided.  As lizdb said to Paul earlier:

a full transcript of the census details you have would be helpful

Lucky that Carol has access to the censuses and was willing to spend time looking them up!

I take it that, in the 1851, Elizabeth's relationship to the HoH wasn't given?

Paul, when I referred to a transcription error, I wasn't so much thinking that the registrar interpreted some other name (HANNAH as it turns out) as JUDE - rather that his eyes jumped a line and he copied something from the entry above or below!

Carol, as you say, proof is needed that each Elizabeth is one and the same, that her maiden name was HANNAH, and the name of her father (for following her up in 1841).  Could be expensive!  Say:
* marriage cert of William ALEXANDER & Elizabeth HANNAH in 1849 - would give name and occupation of father, and witnesses' names might also be helpful.
* birth cert of John ALEXANDER b 1850 - for maiden name of mother
* birth cert of William ALEXANDER b 1861 - for maiden name of mother
* and perhaps also birth cert of John ALEXANDER b ca 1864 - again for maiden name of mother.

I'm just checking out Elizabeth b Cumberland in Lancashire in the 1881 census on FamilySearch - but, of course, she might not be in Lancashire ...

JAP  

 

[carol8353]

JAP

In 1851 Elizabeth is a visitor in the household of Joseph and Catherine Richardson......but it struck me that although they are living in Liverpool the girls were both born in Cumberland.

A quick check of Joseph and Catherine's marriage on Free BMD gave me a maiden name of Hannah.So then I looked for a William Alexanders marriage to an Elizabeth and blow me she's also a Hannah.....same 1/4 too 

I wonder if the later kids aren't his at all,and she's hiding a diferent man some where, seems a big gap between 1851 and baby John to the 1871 John age 8 and Sarah age 5.

Something is bugging me with this one. But don't know what 

Carol

[lizdb]

Just preparing my summary - but i think JAP has covered most of it - well done. Some good points raised here, esp about confirming all this with certs. Yes, expensive, but very necessary - else what is the point of doing any of it in the first place? If you just going haring off on a track but actually it is a completely wrong track, then it is all a complete waste of time. Better to take it slowly, and spend a bit (no one ever said genealogy was cheap), but then have the satisfaction of knowing that the end product is the real thing, and that all apparent discrepancies have been sorted, proved, etc.

Sorry - got a bit carried away.

Right - summary:
Parents John and Mary Hannah
1824 Christening of Elizabeth Hannah in Whitehaven, Cumberland. Has sister Catherine, brother John.
1841 Elizabeth age 15 in Whitehaven
1849 Elizabeth Hannah ,marries William Alexander in Liverpool. Double wedding with sister Catherine who marries Richardson
1851 Elizabeth age 25 at Woolfe Str Liverpool with sister. Parents live next door. Has 9 mth old son John . William away - a mariner

All looking good so far. Have we found birth of baby John? Have we looked for William (his boat may be in another port rather than at sea)

Now it gets dodgy
1861 Elizabeth age 18,23 or 28, with husband William age 24, a painter, and baby William Thomas
William was born 1861 and dies as a baby.

Questions: Eliz should be 35, but may have lost a few years. William cannot in reality be 24, if he was married to her with a baby 10 years earlier. The key is to prove this is the same family as on 1851, and on the face of it looks at the least,doubtful and in all honesy highly improbable. But that does not daunt us!!. What address are they at? What address is Catherine Richardson at? What address are John and Mary Hannah at? or have they died? If so, did they leave wills which mentioned their daughter Elizabeth? also have we found death of the first baby, John?

1863 Son John born
1866 Daughter Sarah born (birth cert says mums maiden name Jude)
1866-71 William dies
1871 Elizabeth should now be 45. She is found age 41, with John and Sarah.
what is this address?
1881  - disappeared
1891 Should be 65. Age 61 with Sarah who is now Mrs Manion

Have we found William's death?

Conclusion:
Get marriage cert of William and Elizabeth, to see what it says about ages. Try and establish Williams age, was he really 34 in 1861, not 24? MArriage cert should give his dad's name, lets hope it is something unusual.

We need something that links the pre 1861 Elizabeth (thatis the one that is nee Hannah and marries a Mariner) to the post 1861 one (that is the one that married a painter who was young, and appears to have a maiden name Jude)

Going back to my original comment in my first post, these APPEAR to be two completely different people. But, like Carol, I have a hunch they may not be!

[carol8353]

Wow Liz 

See I told you she was good at summarising 

This is all getting too complicated and without certs I think we're stuffed for now.

Off to do some housework and watch the rain !

Carol

[JAP]

Hi Carol,

'Visitor', I've often found to be related though the relationship isn't shown.

I guess the big gaps might be because she had no luck with her children i.e. there were children who were born and died between censuses.

I'm afraid I've given up looking for Elizabeth in 1881 - I did look at a lot of them but ...   She might well have been re-married, or have been living with someone and taken his name - and might well have thoroughly misrepresented her age!
The Keswick birthplace is a bit strange ...

I did find Catherine (HANNAH) RICHARDSON in the 1881 for what it's worth - in Bootle with her daughter.
Mary Elizabeth MCKENZIE, Head, U(!), 26, b Liverpool, Annuitant
Catherine Agnes MCKENZIE, Daughter, 3, b Bootle
Catherine RICHARDSON, Mother, (no marital status given - there's the death of a Joseph Hayton P RICHARDSON, age 50, Q3 1875, W Derby), 58, b Whitehaven, CUL
Joseph William RICHARDSON, Brother, U, 21, b Liverpool, Stone Mason
Thomas Pollard RICHARDSON, Brother, 10, b Liverpool, Scholar
and 4 ANDERTONs, the eldest born in Whitehaven.

Joseph William's christening at St Peter, Liverpool is in the IGI - there are a few at St Peter with father with that wonderful name of Joseph Heaton/Hayton Pollard RICHARDSON.

Sorry Paul - but, as I said a couple of posts ago "Could be expensive!" 

JAP

[CatOne]

1881?   age all wrong though
 
1881 RG11/3608 Folio 37 Page 27 ("Eliscander")
2 Cow Lane, Dale Street, Liverpool
Elizabeth Eliscander wid 42 Laundress Cumberland
Sarah dau 16 Liverpool
John son 19 Light Porter Liverpool
Elihu Pearson uncle widr 72 Servant man gen lab Cumberland
Elizabeth Hampton boarder wid 55 Seamstress Liverpool

[carol8353]

Cat,this is looking very good.

You can imagine her giving the enumerator her name in her Cumbrian accent and him with his Liverpool one

Elizabeth is spelt without the E,for anyone looking them up.

Now to check back on who on earth Elihu Pearson was 

Carol

[CatOne]

Well in 1871 hes married to a Mary, living in Clare Street, Liverpool, born West Newton Cumberland

and from IGI -
Marriage - Elihu Pearson and Mary Ostle 15th june 1835 Cathedral, Manchester

son Thomas born to Eliha and Mary Pearson , chr. 30/10/1836

[CatOne]

1871 RG10/3790 Folio 149 Page 9
59 Clare Street, Islington, Liverpool
Elihu Pearson 59 Porter Keswick Cumberland
Mary 66 Moorhouse Cumberland
+ lodgers William L Coxhue? (44 Printer Compositor) and Thomas Helsby? (38 marr Blacksmith)

so from same place as Elizabeth..... what was her mums maiden name, cant remember if you found that out