Could my ancestor have recorded his dead wife on the census?!

[Comosus]

Yes, it does seem a bit crazy but I don't know what to make of this.

Dennis Turvey b1811 and Matilda Allen b1811 are my GGGG Grandparents, both born in Birmingham.  Children are John 1833, Joseph 1838 and Emma 1847.

Everything is normal until the 1861 when Dennis is living with wife Ellen.  Now, I had found the marriage of Dennis Turvey to Matilda Ellen but couldn't find the birth of Matilda.  I got a birth certificate and found out she was actually Allen and continued backwards from there.  I just assumed she'd used her maiden name on the census, for some reason.

The other problem is that she says she is 22, and she's living with her 14 year old daughter.  Dennis dies in 1863 and there's a death for Matilda in 1860.  But if Matilda has died, then who is this Ellen?  There isn't a marriage.  I have tried searching for Ellen on the 1871 but I cannot find her and there are no deaths or marriage that would fit her.

I don't really know what to make of this - I'm sceptical about whether Ellen actually existed or not.

Thoughts are appreciated

Andrew

[Wendi]

Hi Andrew!

The Dennis Turvey on he 1861 Census is born about 1823 

Dennis Turvey 38 Fishmonger
Ellen Wife 22
Emma  daughter 14

Not that it helps your case but Emma could be Dennis' daughter and Ellen his 2nd wife.

Wendi 

[Jo New]

Thers a death of a MATILDA TURVEY 1ST Q 1860, BIRMINGHAM 6D VOL 2

if thts any help ?

bw Jo

[PaulineJ]

Doesn't mean to say that that particular 1860 death is anything at all to do with the family, though.
Ages in the index don't even appear at that era, to indicate adult or child....
There aren't enough facts as yet to make any sort of deduction.

Pauline

[SeaThreePeeO]

I can't help much but I had a simillar thing with Jacob Woodbridge Poulsums.

I had an 1840 death for a Jacob woodbridge Poulsum in Somerset, but then I also had a Jacob Woodbridge Poulsum in Somerset on the 1841 Census.  This had me confused for a long while until I discovered that the Jacob that died in 1840 was the son of the Jacob in  the 1841 census.

Hopefully you will be able to untangle the truth soon.

[avm228]

there's a death for Matilda in 1860.  But if Matilda has died, then who is this Ellen? 

Andrew, have you ordered the death certificate to make sure she's the right Matilda?

Emma, the 14yr old, is enumerated as daughter of the head of household - which seems to tie in with your pre-1861 info; she's Dennis' 14 yr old daughter, not Ellen's.    Dennis, if widowed, might well have found himself a young lady, not bothered to take her up the aisle, but reported her as "wife" on the census for respectability purposes.

My own view is that the similarity between young Ellen's name and the maiden name of Matilda is likely to be simply coincidence.

That death cert, if you don't already have it, would seem to be your first port of call

Anna

[Wendi]

That's a point Anna!

Also Andrew do you have the 1863 death cert for Dennis?

'Cos I've heard about fibbing about your age to "pull a bird" but there is far too much of an age difference between the Dennis on the 1851 census at 50 years old and the one on the 1861 census at 38 years old.

I wondered how old the Dennis was who died in 1863?

Wendi 

PS perhaps if Emma's mother died, an appropriate period of time had not lapped for a marriage to Ellen to take place?

[avm228]

PS perhaps if Emma's mother died, an appropriate period of time had not lapped for a marriage to Ellen to take place?

LOL Wendi - many of the widowers in my tree, particularly those with children to care for, scarcely waited till the wife was cold before moving on

Anna

[Comosus]

Doesn't mean to say that that particular 1860 death is anything at all to do with the family, though.
Ages in the index don't even appear at that era, to indicate adult or child....
There aren't enough facts as yet to make any sort of deduction.

Pauline

Turvey is a rare surname and Matilda is a rare forename, as is Dennis.  I'm 100% sure it's the death for Matilda.  I thought that I did have his death certificate but I can't seem to find it!   I do remember thinking that things on the death certificate weren't right.  I would've added the date onto my tree, but I haven't.  However, I do keep certificates that I think are wrong and this one I was just a bit sceptical about, but it must be the right one, same with Matilda's death.

Andrew