Birth Place Confusion in Angus - CARR

[houziwang1]

Hi Forfarian

Caterthun may well be a good place to look. The census page itself says either 'Callu Hume' or 'Callu Thune' but this would have been written in England by someone with no real idea of the spelling of place names in Forfar and would likely have been spelled phonetically. I'll do a bit more searching from this angle.

I haven't found anything on the 1851 census yet although JeanP has found some entries under the name of Kerr that might be of interest.

Thanks for your help

[Forfarian]

Ho Houziwang

The thing that is puzzling me is that I cannot find the 1891 census entry - when I look at the index it brings up 15 Charles Carrs in County Durham, none of whom was born in Scotland. Do you have an image of the original that you could post here for us to have a look at?

[houziwang1]

Hi Forfarian

image attached, hope this helps!

Cheers

Moderator comment: Image removed - please see RootsChat Copyright Policy

[MonicaL]

Hi

Can't see the family in the 1851 Census as yet, but this looks like parents James and Agnes in 1861:

James Kerr    56, Crofter A Lab, b. Glammiss, Forfarshire
Agnes M Kerr    51, b. Glenisla, Forfarshire
Alexander Kerr    6, son b. Dunnichen
Daivd Laing    2, grandson, b. Dunnichen

Address:  Village Of Bownefearld, Dunnichen Angus

This is a like entry for the birth of grandson David, probably illegitimate given the way the surnames have been entered:

DAVID LAING OR CARR  Birth: 11 MAY 1859  Dunnichen, Angus, Scotland
Parents: Father: CHARLES LAING and ISABELLA CARR

With Agnes's birth place from her 1861 entry, this looks a possibility for her birth on IGI:

AGNEST ALEXANDER Christening:  20 SEP 1807  Glenisla, Angus, Scotland
Parents:  WILLIAM ALEXANDER and JANNET MCDOUGAL    
   
You could also have a look at her death cert on Scotlands People, only one showing with her surnames:

1890   ALEXANDER   AGNES       KERR   F   77   DUNNICHEN   /ANGUS   283/00 0025

If this is the correct entry, it will verify her parents' names and also show whether husband James was still alive or not to help you when searching for his death cert.

Regards.

Monica

....I know the info above is absolutely no use in helping you find Charles' birth place but hopefully will help with family background!

[houziwang1]

Hi Monica

This is excellent stuff. I'd say the 1861 entry has to be James and Agnes. It's too much of a coincidence to be anyone else (he says with fingers crossed!), particularly with the addition of the grandson and linkage to Isabella.

The birth year of Agnes seems to bounce around a bit. I've had 1811/1812 which is the most frequent. However there's also 1815 on the 1881 census and now 1807. That said the death certificate has her 1812/1813 so i'll get onto Scotlandspeople and see what I can find.

Very many thanks for your help with this.

[MonicaL]

Hopefully it will be the correct death for Agnes. She seemed to have lived in Dunnichen right up to her death in 1890. She shows as a widow in 1881, so you have your window for James death between 1871-81. There is this entry on the death index that might be James's:

1873   KERR   JAMES    66   DUNNICHEN   /ANGUS   283/00 0002

A number of grandchildren show in the 1871 and 1881 censuses which will let you make some connections as to what happened to some of Charles' siblings hopefully:

In 1871:

James Carr    77, Formerly Farm Servant, b. Glainuns, Forfarshire
Agnes Carr    60, b. Gliaester, Forfarshire
Laura Alexander 8, granddaughter, b. Dunnichen
James Nairne    4, b. Dunnichen

Address:  Bownefauld, Dunnichen

In 1881:

Agnes Carr    66, head, ploughman's widow, b. Glenisla
Henry Massey    2, grandson, b. Forfar
Alexander Robinson    54,  lodger

Address: Blair Road, Dunnichen

Regards.

Monica 

[houziwang1]

Hi Monica

Once again, many thanks. I've been doing some following up on the information you've given me and I thought you'd be interested to hear how accurate you've been!!

The 1861 census (also suggested by JeanP) was spot on. I got a copy of the original from scotlandspeople and Alexander Kerr is actually a grandson (as well as David Laing), not a son as listed on ancestry. Whose child he is, I have no idea! That said, the Laura Alexander on the 1871 census is actually Louisa Elizabeth - it's quite plainly written on the census so it's (another!) transcript error on Ancestry. She's the daughter of Elizabeth Carr who married James Alexander in 1857.

I've got the death index for James and that too is the right one. He's clearly marked as Agnes' husband and this of course gives me the names of his parents, which I didn't have before, James Kerr and Agnes Fyfe.

The death index for Agnes is also correct, she is listed as James' widow and her daughter Elizabeth was the informant. Her father's name is listed as William which ties in with the birth record from 1807.

Your suggestion that David Laing, the grandson, might have been illegitimate was also correct. This too is marked on the birth index.

I'm still no nearer to finding anything more about Charles but i'm having a lot of fun finding out about everyone else! I think the main niggle is the wide variation in all the birth dates. James and Agnes seem to wander around quite a bit. Agnes is anything from 1807 to 1815 and James starts out at 1794 and goes up to 1807. Most of the other factors all link in so i'm pretty confident we're talking about the same people, it's just confusing to find people get younger as the years go by (if only...).

The differences in spelling have become easier to understand as I delve into the records, only Isabella Carr was able to sign her name - everyone else just left their mark so the spelling on the records must have been largely left down to whoever was filling out the forms. The fact that the spelling sometimes changes on the same form also adds to the fun.

Once again, many thanks for your help. It's been extremely useful.

[Forfarian]

In 1881: Address: Blair Road, Dunnichen

This will be in the village of Letham. The 1881 CD-Rom transcription omits the village/town names which are listed in the page headings; it just lists the street address and parish.

This has the curious consequence that you can't search for people in some largish towns unless you know which parish they are in - for example Motherwell (in Dalziel), Airdrie (in New Monkland), Coatbridge (in Old Monkland and Wishaw (in Cambusnethan).

[MonicaL]

I am really pleased that it is all coming together for you. It's a pity that Charles's birth place is still outstanding. Maybe the 1851 Census entry for him would provide some clues as you would think he would still be with his family at that stage. Can't see the family at all as yet on the index, have you tried searching for him on Scotlands People?

In respect of ages and spellings, remember that it was a sign of the times. Spellings of surnames (and first names) were not as rigid as they are today and as for ages....

Regards.

Monica