Author Topic: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)  (Read 8654 times)

Offline Candolim_Imp

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Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« on: Wednesday 26 September 07 09:18 BST (UK) »
Having discovered that my GGG grandfather was Scottish, further information from a fellow descendant indicates that his family anecdotes cite Dumfries as the place of origin.

I'm looking for John Guildford, son of Samuel. John was born c1815-1818.

Other strong matches in English censuses indicate the following:

Samuel born c1785, wife Mary born c1788-1794 both in Scotland. Children John c1815-1818, Edward c1820, Agnes c1837 (or earlier).... this extra info is confident guesswork, not proven!

May be known as Guilford, Gilford... or even Gifford perhaps

I would be eternally grateful to anyone who might be able to locate these people. Scotland's People has no matches as far as I can see...

Impy

Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos

Offline Gadget

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 10:16 BST (UK) »
Hi Impy

I've been having a good look ut with not much luck!

What English censuses do you have him/them on. Could you give the refs, please?

Also, what are the sources  that give the parents where Samuel and Mary and their birthdates?  I see that there are a number of John Giffords born around that time but none with a father Samuel  :-\


Regards

Gadget
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Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 11:00 BST (UK) »
John Guilford married Jane Clarkson in 1846, Liverpool. At this time he was a book keeper, father Samuel, Labourer. A witness was James Gilbertson.

John and Jane had 3 children: James Clarkson Guildford (presumably named after Jane's father, James), Mary Guildford and Samuel Guildford. I am guessing that they broke with the tradition of naming after the paternal grandfather first either because they lived near James (jane was born in Liverpool) or because James had died and was being honoured by the couple. Given that the 2 grandfathers' names appear amongst the children's, it would be reasonable to assume that Mary was a grandmother's name.

John died just before the 1851 census was taken, but in 1841 there is one good match, John Guildford born Scotland aged 25 (so 25-29), here he is a labourer, but is round the corner from James Gilbertson of Scotland, a book keeper.

In 1851 there is an Edward Guildford of Scotland, aged 31, lodging with the Price family in Everton, Liverpool. He looks like he may be a brother.

In 1861 Edward Guildford is in Hill St, Everton with housekeeper, Caroline [Garner?], aged 48, married, born Birmingham

in 1871 Edward Guildford is at 11 Thorncliffe Rd, Everton with wife E [S?] Caroline Guildford aged 63 born Birmingham (almost certainly the housekeeper of 1861, but no marriage can be found).

Edward Gilford died in Liverpool aged 57 in 1876

Now to Samuel/Mary

One thing to bear in mind here is that John's son, Samuel Clarkson Guildford was lodging in Cumberland in 1861....

1861 Arthuret, Longtown, Carlisle, Cumberland

James M Coward. 28. Bobbin Turner. Staveley, Westmorland
Agnes Coward, wife. 26. Scotland
Samuel Gilford. 75. marr. Boarder. Railway Lab. Scotland
Mary Gilford. 67. marr. Boarder. Railway Lab's wife. Scotland
John Hall. 2. Boarder. Wetheral, Cumberland


Samuel Gillford died Longtown Jun Q 1861

An Agnes Guildford married in Carlisle Mar Q 1869 to Telesforo Perez or William Armstrong

1871 Bothergate, Carlisle, Cumberland

Mary Guildford. 82. Widow. Scotland
Agnes Guildford. 33. Dau. Unm. Charwoman. Scotland

Whether the Agnes who married is the same woman, in which case she had quickly reverted back to her maiden name, I don't know.... but this is a very rare name in Cumberland.

As you can see, I' working on some supposition with the extended family, but I feel quite confident that these are connected to my John, especially now I have supporting evidence of John being Scottish.

I cannot locate Samuel or Mary before 1861, or Agnes before 1871. Nor can I find Edward before the Liverpool census of 1851.... I have been through all the possible spelling variations, and searched on just forenames, in English and Scottish returns.

Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos

Offline Gadget

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 11:43 BST (UK) »
Interestingly, but a patron submission on the IGI, there is a James Gilbertson born 'around 1800' in Gretna. On SP he is showing as bpt. 9 February 1808, Gretna. Parents William Gilbertson and Margaret Birney.

This is just another piece of supporting evidence but worth having asearch around Gretna  :)

Gadget
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Offline Gadget

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 11:49 BST (UK) »
SP is showing 5 Gifford bpts (I used G*ford) in Dumfries between 1802 and 1822 - Kelton and Dryfesdale. None of the parents is a Samuel. I can't find any S, males baptised at the approx time for your Samuel. There is a Sally, 1783, Penninghame, Wigtownshire  :-\

Gadget
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Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 12:27 BST (UK) »
Odd isn't it?

Here's the info I have on James Gilbertson:

1841 Brownlow Hill, Liverpool

James Gilbertson. 30. book keeper. Scotland
Mary. 30. Lancs
Margaret. 10. Lancs
Elizabeth. 8. Lancs
Mary. 1. Lancs

1851 99 London Rd, Liverpool

James Gilbertson. 43. Book keeper & victualler. Scotland
Susan. 31. Scotland
Anne. 4. Liverpool
Mary. 2. Liverpool
Margaret. 60. mother. Formerly Victualler. Scotland
+ servs

1861 115 London Rd
Susan Gilbertson. 41. Wid. Licensed Victualler. Scotland
+ staff & lodger

This looks like a good possible match to the James in Gretna
Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos

Offline Gadget

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 12:35 BST (UK) »
It looks a pretty close fit - especially with the mother , Margaret,  showing up :)

Now was he just there as a colleague/employer or because he knew John or  :-\

Have you tried for any wills or other documents on the NA or A2A site?

Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

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Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 12:41 BST (UK) »
I can't find a marriage for James to Mary, but in 1845 he married Susan Grosel Warden (I assume that's Grizell, having had some experience of the name in my partner's Scottish ancestry).

I suspect that James Gilbertson and John Guildford were connected as more than just employer/employee.... in fact, I wonder if James was responsible for John's rise from Labourer to Book Keeper. Perhaps they were even related in some way.

Can't remember if I've checked the archives for James... I must have done for John... but will go have a look
Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos

Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Guildford family of Dumfriesshire? (Guilford, Gilford, Gifford)
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 26 September 07 13:14 BST (UK) »
More on the Gilbertsons:

James Gilberson married Mary Gilberson 10th July 1826 at St Peter, Liverpool

Children of James Gilbertson and Mary Ann at St Peter:
Margaret Harriet 3rd Oct 1831
Elizabeth 6th Aug 1835
Mary 31st May 1840

A Mary Gilbertson died Mar Q 1844, West Derby, Liverpool

James Gilbertson married Susan Grosel Warden 1845, West Derby

Children of James & Susan (all St Peter)

Ann 12th July 1846
Mary Agnes 3rd Sep 1848
Susan 10th Mar 1850
Susan 6th Jun 1852
James 10th Nov 1853
Margaret 19th Aug 1855
John Joshua 28th Mar 1858

The children of the 2nd marriage are living separately to their mother in 1861:

Highfield Rd, West Derby, Liverpool (all born Liverpool)
Annie Gilbertson. dau (head). 15
Mary A. 13
Susan. 9
James 7.
Margaret. 5
John J. 3

In 1871 Susan, widowed, aged 50 is a retired publican with children: Mary A, Margaret and John

In 1881 Susan G Gilbertson, widow aged 61, annuitant born Grangemouth, Scotland is at 33 White Rock St, West Derby with son John, unmarried, Book Keeper plus servant.

Susan Grosart Gilbertson died Sep Q 1887 aged 67

This matches Susan Grosart Warden bap 2nd Mar 1820, Falkirk, Stirling, dau of John Warden and Ann Sclanders
Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos