Thomas Butler

[judi2632]

Hi Debra

Thanks for that, I was hoping it may shed some further light on the Butler family, sadly they don't appear to be either on Pleasant Row or Gedling Street  But really appreciate the link

Kind Regards Judi

[Annie65115]

Nott Mercury, 23 Oct 1850; A 14 year FWK called Thomas Butler was up in court for piclpocketing in the marketplace. It says he was remanded but I can't find further details.

Same, 6 Feb 1851: 15 year old Thomas Butler, a FWK of Victoria St, was remanded on suspicion of pickpocketing. Apparently his father (unnamed) found some money wrapped in a silk scarf on his bed!

21 Mar 1851: Picked up again on suspicion of pickpocketing; age given as 16, address Victoria St. He was also accused of assaulting a child. Sent to House of Correction for 2 months for hard labour. So that's where he'd have been for the 1851 census.

Feb 1852: he's back in court, now aged 18. (Obviously not all these given ages can be correct!) Stocking maker of 12 Victoria St, pickpocketing again.

June 1852: insufficient evidence to convict him of another charge of pocket-picking.

9 Sept 1852;jailed for 3 months with hard labour for (you guessed it) pickpocketing

Jan 1853; back in court for the same; address given as Platoff Court, Platoff St. This came to the assizes in March and he was transported for 7 years,but not before his mother has given him an alibi which the court obviously didn't believe.

[Annie65115]

1851 census; Victoria St, St Mary, Nottingham

Thomas Butler, 54, pensioner
Elizabeth Butler, 43
and their children
Mary Ann Butler, 19, lace carder  (poss marriage witness?)
Sarah Butler, 17, machine worker
Ellen Butler, 15, machine worker
Catherine Butler, 5, scholar

all born in Dublin!

(And this would perhaps link to another early court appearance by a "little Irish lad" called Thomas Butler who was discharged for a first offence of stealing in Nottingham in May 1850))

[Annie65115]

This is the family; in 1861 Thomas and Eliza Butler and their two youngest daughters are in Plat Court, St Mary's,Nottingham.

Both parents are now listed as FWKs.

[Annie65115]

Death:

1861 04 30   Sarah BUTLER   20   Victoria St    NOTTINGHAM St Mary

[Annie65115]

Thomas Butler aged 18 ( Born 1835)  was convicted of "Theft from the person" in Nottingham in 1853 and sentenced to 7 years.

It also states he had 4 previous times he was convicted under "The Vagrant act".

His father was listed as also Thomas Butler "Frame work Knitter " and his address  as
4 Pleasant Row, Gedling Street Nottingham.

His sentence was served at Wakefield prison and then moved to Portland Prison in 1854 .

Hi sentence completed 2nd March 1860.[/b]

But the marriage to Fanny was in 1857 -- so something's not right -----

[judi2632]

Hi Annie

Thanks so so much for all the research, you are 100% right the timeline for the Thomas Butler looked great until the timeline of his prison sentence and the date of his marriage to Fanny Wagstaff. .....Thomas Butler may have been let out on licence prior to completing his sentence Annie

.Please can I ask you to look at the original copy on Ancestry and see if you agree, I'm looking at the very light writing at the start of the record under his name  ( Thomas Butler) I THINK it reads

Licence Reg number 4216
Discharged 3 April 1856
Licence Number 5239
Revoked 3 May 1858

Scanning further into same record it appears he had been admitted to Portland prison on two occasions one in 28 April 1854 and then again in 24 May 1858 ( presumably when his licence was revoked)

So question ? was  this Thomas Butler married to Fanny Wagstaff while out on licence from Portland OR was this Thomas Butler NOT the same person at all more questions than answers lol I really do appreciate all the input and expert help.

Every census indicates my Thomas Butler was Nottingham born but who knows.

 I need to relook from the start on this line to see if I can unpick it. with available paperwork and facts

It starts with my great grandmother
 
Born 23 Oct 1866  Nottingham,  Catherine Butler known as  ( Kate) .FACT

Census for 1891 has the following that takes us back on the BUTLER Line.

William Screeton aged 63
Mary A Screeton aged 61
Thomas BUTLER aged 50 (born 1841)  Widower Foreman Porter west midlands railway Boarder
Kate ( CATHERINE) BUTLER aged 24 Boarder
William T Screeton aged 20 Boarder  ( Boarding with his Grandparents and his wife to be Catherine Butler and her father Thomas Butler a widower)
.....................................................................

William Thomas Screeton and Catherine Butler then marry
Married 5 Oct 1892  Married William Thomas Screeton Fact
....................................................................

Looking at the 1881 For Thomas Butler born 1841 according to 1991 census and daughter Catherine ( Kate ) Butler .

1881 Census
Thomas Butler aged 33 Head  Railway Lab Nottingham........indicates born 1848
Frances Butler aged 34 wife  Leic Willoughby
Catherine Butler aged 14 Fancy box maker Nottingham
..............................
1871
Thomas Butler aged 34 head Coalminer Nottingham ( Born 1837) according to census
Francis Butler aged 32
Catherine Butler aged 4
George M Butler aged 4/12
.....................................

Baptism for Catherine Butler
Free Reg

Catherine Butler
St Barnabas
birthdate 23 Oct 1866
Baptism date 30 Dec 1866
Father forename Thomas
Mother forename Frances
Father surname   BUTLER
Mother surname   WAGSTAFF
.........................................

Kind Regards Judi

[Annie65115]

Just a quick response over breakfast. If your Thomas was the miscreant of Victoria St, he would almost certainly have been born in ireland, given that all the other children, older and younger, were.

And since the youngest sibling was only 5 in 1851, and born in Ireland, that would put the family's arrival in England in the latter half if the 1840s. So this Thomas, born ten years earlier, would know where he was from.

I also wonder if such a locally well known miscreant whose hand was permanently rifling through someone else's pocket, would really have got a job as a railway porter after many years in jail!

Whilst I was v proud of myself for tracing this family yesterday, the cold light, and circumstantial evidence, of today is suggesting to me that it's probably NOT your Thomas after all.

Will look at other stuff on the computer (rather than the phone) later.

[Annie65115]

Happy to have a look at the ancestry record (if it's avail on my membership) but I can't find it! Can you point me in the right direction?

All I can see is quarterly returns from the prison hulk; Thomas's behaviour varied from "very good" to "exemplary" and there's a note, "Sentence expired 2 mch 60".