Marriage records for Riddings Independant Chapel, around 1863

[ev]

whizzer

i suggest that we might be chasing shadows here and duplicating research.
where does john whysall , mary cresswell , and  thomas whysall info come from
and how accurate is it ?
whysall does not sound a common name

ev

[yonderpeasant]

Have you checked out the wirksworth parish reg site.

http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/frontpag.htm

there are Ripley area Whysall here plus a name of the person researching

[Whizzer]

Dear all

Thanks for your input - all very valid points/questions, and information.  Much appreciated.  Will think through what you've suggested/asked and respond soon  . Unfortunately have no time to work on it all again until weekend.  

Whizzer

[meles]

Work does so get in the way of what's really important, doesn't it, Whizzer? 

Keep us posted on progress.

meles

[Whizzer]

Hi Kizmiaz, yonderpeasant

Thanks for the GROs for Thomas's birth certificate and John&Mary marriage.  I have ordered them so will wait to see what they reveal.

Ev,

I have my grandfather’s birth cert. 1891 giving his father Thomas Whysall, and notes from  conversations with my parents 35 years ago showing Thomas' siblings German, Frederick and James.  From family knowledge, Thomas married Sarah Mellars from Woodsetts, and there are references to Mary Cresswell..

In 1891 census at Wales Waleswood Collliery Row Thomas head M 26 coal miner b Derby, Waingroves; Sarah wife M 18 b Yorks, Woodsetts 

I have census records for John & Mary 1861, 1871, 1881.

On 1881 census at Aston Ter Aston cum Aughton, John head 48 coal miner b Hartshay, Mary wife 45 b Denby, Frank son 22 coal miner b Green Hillocks, Susana dau 18 b Waingroves, Thomas son 15 coal miner b Waingroves, Frederick son 11 scholar b Waingroves, James son 9 scholar b Waingroves, German son 7 scholar b Waingroves.   

In 1871 census at Pentrich Waingroves, John Head Coal miner 34 b Ripley, Mary Wife Coal miners wife 35 b Denby, Francis son coal miner 12 b Ripley, Susannah 6 scholar b Pentrich, Thomas son 3 scholar b Pentrich, Frederick son 1 b Pentrich
 
On 1861 census at Woodside Ripley, John head 29 coal miner b Ripley, Mary wife 25 b Denby, Sarah dau 5 scholar b Ripley, Francis son 2 scholar b Ripley. 

Additionally  I now have the marriage in 1856 of John Whysall & Mary Cresswell at Riddings Chapel (certificate awaited).  This would just fit with birth of Sarah - but what happens to Sarah after this?  She never seems to be mentioned again, does she die?

You’ll see the discrepancies on the 1871 census  - I had previously discounted this as 'no match', and I did wonder whether this gave rise to a different John & Mary, but what do you all think?

Research by others on this Whysall line give Thomas’s parents John & Mary,  years of birth about 10 years earlier, which is why I wanted to verify for myself as far as possible the link between Thomas and his ancesters.

Having Thomas’ baptism would be very helpful as being in a non-conformist church, they might even have his mother’s maiden name.  Can anyone help me with this lookup?

Thanks to all for helping.
Whizzer

[kizmiaz]

Additionally  I now have the marriage in 1856 of John Whysall & Mary Cresswell at Riddings Chapel (certificate awaited).  This would just fit with birth of Sarah - but what happens to Sarah after this?  She never seems to be mentioned again, does she die?

Hi Whizzer,

FreeBMD has a death for a Sarah Whysall who was born in 1856. Her death was registered in Belper district in 1867. Full details are: Jun quarter 1867, Belper, age 11, Vol 7b Page 268

[I'm slightly confused about the dates of birth you give for Mary CRESSWELL (b.1844, "House Wife") and John WHYSALL (b.1843; Collier). Where are these dates from? The census returns you have given don't indicate these as dates of birth, so is there another source?]

Looking at the evidence from the censuses, it looks extremely likely that this John and Mary are the correct parents for Thomas Whysall (b. 1866). The 1871 census discrepencies could easily be dismissed as incorrect transciption from the enumerators original notes when copied to the census form. An age of 39 written down in a shaky hand could easily be read as 34, and Thomas' 3 years old could have originally read as 5.

Hope this helps

Glen

[Whizzer]

Hi Glen - good question,
Well..... a couple of years back when my family tree activity was more limited to Genes Reunited, I was contacted by John Whysall who turned out to be my 1st cousin once removed (my dad's uncle's son).  John had done a lot of research into the Whysall lines and had a comprehensive tree on GR, much of which I adopted as my own. John and I were in contact for a while, and he's certainly an experienced researcher.  However, I became less active on GR for a while (my dad died last summer) and when I came back to researching, it  seemed all the more important to have my own first hand evidence, and I also noticed that John had changed the years of birth in his tree for John and Mary Whysall, from the early 1830s to mid 1840s.  About the same time I started looking around other websites, and came across a thread on Genealogy.com (posted by Simon Goodwin and Barrie Robinson) called 'Whysall Family of Pentrich & Codnor'.  This raised doubts for me about some of John's research, and I eventualy managed to track down Barrie Robinson (he's in Tasmania!) who has been doing single surname research on Whysall, and I am now in contact with him also.  Anyhow, I reviewed all the information I had ever had from John Whysall, and included was a link to Rootschat.com, which I had never followed up.  This was my first introduction to the site, and on this link,

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,8792.45.html

I picked up the entry below........

Entry from John Whysall on Rootschat:
 Re: CRESSWELL look up please
« Reply #55 on: Saturday 06 November 04 14:07 GMT (UK) »   
~~~~~~~~
If this thread is not dead, may I intervene?

First, though, a greeting to all my Cresswell cousins.

My interest in this stems from the marriage of Mary CRESSWELL (b.1844, "House Wife") of Ripley, Derbyshire to John WHYSALL (b.1843; Collier). Hushed respect, please to my great-great-grandparents!

Mary Cresswell's parents were Robert CRESSWELL and Fanny BOOTH.

John WHYSALL's parents were William WHYSALL and Ann FLETCHER. This takes us into Pentrich, Derby (the scene, let it be remembered, of the last armed uprising in England). I am currently working on the assumption that this is the William Whysall christening 18 Sep 1803; Pentrich, Derby,
parents: William Whysall & Mirah Taylor.

Back to John and Mary:
Six children:
Frank (b.1859);
Susanna (b. 1863);
Thomas (b.1870: Grand dad!);
Frederick (b.1870);
James (b.1872);
German (b.1874)

I contacted John again a couple of weeks back to see where he stood on it all nowadays, and he replied "Yes, I too had some complications with the 1833/1843 birthdates: as I recall, I sorted it by reference to the ages given on the census returns."  So that's a bit inconclusive really..... Sorry John if you're out there - I'm just getting mightily confused!!

My own research is now becoming much more supportive of the theory that John b 1831 and Mary b 1835.  I guess I have not been confident enough in my own findings and needed opinions of other experienced folk with an open mind!  Rootschat folk have helped point me at GRO indexes, and I  now have marriage cert for John & Mary and birth cert for Thomas. 

Here are findings from registers:
Birth of my great grandfather Thomas:
16th April 1866 at Waingroves, Pentrich, Thomas, boy, father John Whysall, mother Mary Whysall formerly Cresswell, father's occupation coal miner, signed by/informant - the mark of Mary Whysall mother Waingroves, registered 21st May 1866

Marriage of my great great grandparents John and Mary:
on 28th December 1856, at independent Chapel Riddings, District of Belper, John Whysall, age 25 years, Bachelor, Coal miner, Ripley, (no entry for father's name and surname or rank or profession of father), married Mary Cresswell, age 21 years, Spinster, Ripley, father Francis Cresswell deceased, Coal miner.  Witnesses James Cresswell and Ruth Cresswell.   No signatures all "the mark of....."

Again, this challenges John Whysall's theory above that parents of Mary Cresswell are Robert Cresswell and Fanny Booth, because according to the marriage certificate, Mary's father is Francis Cresswell (deceased).  Email from Barrie in  Tazmania last night - he believes that Mary Cresswell's parents were Francis and Susannah and she was baptized on 29 June 1837.

So, Glen, that's quite a rambling explanation of 'where it all comes from' and what the conflicts are.  I can't fully rationalise it...... but every now and again, i just keep thinking there was maybe another couple called John & mary Whysall......??!

Whizzer

PS - good work on the death of Sarah - I'll look at that reference, but it certainly seems to tie it up.

[kizmiaz]

Blimey! 

While parents names on Marriage certificates cannot always be relied upon, I think an age difference of 10 years or so would definitely be noticed. It is always the best way to work backwards and get corroborating evidence before moving back, (I learned that to my cost early on!) and I think you can be as sure as it is possible to be after 150 years that you are on the right track.

Fathers names on marriage certificates cannot be guaranteed to be correct, but I think that you should be on fairly firm ground with Frances and Susannah as Mary's parents. John, however, may be a bit more tricky to pin down. There look to be several John Whysalls born in Derbyshire in the period from 1830 to 1835, and without a fathers name it may not be easy to root him out. The fact that the witnesses were both from the brides family may mean he had no known family, or prefered not to be associated with them for some reason.

Good luck in the hunting and remember that all answers in genealogy open up loads of questions, but thats half the fun....

Glen

[John Whysall]

Yeah, yeah.

Enthusiasm and received info got the better of me, all those years ago. Sorry!

I'd now go with:

John Whysall (b 1833, d. 1894, aged 60 — see GRO Worksop 7b 20)
m. Mary Cresswell (— on Censuses she's quoting age to suggest b. 1838 at Denby, therefore as contributions above).

I still reckon that John (b. 1833) is son of William (b.1803) and Ann Fletcher (b. 1809).

I have to confess: when my "original" and mistaken notions started to fall apart — as you've all successfully revealed to the world, I went off onto my mother's line. And hence missed out here. Far more fun — spicy illegitimacy in the 1760s, a couple of High Tory MPs, a bit of bother with the Cromwellians, a spectacular self-braining in the royal presence  … all good stuff.