Irwin/Irvine and Russell

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi all

(this was previously posted in The Common Room before I realised a non-county forum for Scotland existed)

I've gone as far as I can (which isn't very far at all) with the research for my GG-Grandparents in Scotland and am hoping that some bright spark out there will be able to help me. Sorry this is so long but I thought it would be better if you detectives out there had as much info. as I have.

This is what I have so far:-

English Census 1881 in Albion St., Jarrow - County Durham
James Irwin 41 born Ireland - Iron Puddler
Mary Irwin 40 born Scotland, wife
Robert Irwin 14 born Scotland - unemployed
Ellen Irwin 9 born Scotland
Mary Irwin 5 born Felling, County Durham
Catherine 4 born Gateshead, County Durham
Thomas 5mths born Jarrow, County Durham

English Census 1891 in Princess St., Jarrow - County Durham
James Irwin 56 born Ireland - Retired Iron Puddler
Mary Irwin 46   born Scotland, wife
Robert Irwin 23 born Scotland - Ironworker
Ellen Irwin 18 born Scotland - working in Ropery
Mary Irwin 15 born Felling, County Durham - working in Ropery
James 8 born Jarrow, County Durham
Annie 6 born Jarrow, County Durham

English Census 1891 in Burns St., Jarrow - County Durham
James Irwin 61 born Ireland - Shipyard Labourer
Mary Irwin 51 or 54    born Scotland, wife
Ellen Irwin 28 born Scotland - Yarn Winder Ropery
James 18 born Jarrow, County Durham - Steel Roller at Mill
Annie 16 born Jarrow, County Durham

Mother Mary's age is a little skew-whiff but that kind of aging process runs deep in our family 

After much searching and a lot of help from Durham Genealogy, I managed to buy son James' birth cert for his birth in 1882 when he is living at Albion St., Jarrow/Father James - Iron worker/Mother Mary. There were significant developments with this information:-

Irwin had now become Irvine but this may be because Mother Mary couldn't read and write and maybe the Registrar couldn't understand her Scottish accent.
Mother Mary's maiden name is given as RUSSELL.

So, having worked out that the family must have been in Scotland in 1871, I searched the 1871 Census for Scotland for suitable Irwins and Irvines without any luck.
There are about 15 Mary Russells who fit the bill in the 1861 Scotland census.
On the Scotland's People site I bought credits for a variety of matches for Irwin/Irvine marriages, Irwin/Irvine to Russell marriages and Robert and Ellen birth certs. all within the age and date ranges of the English Census data. I have found absolutely nothing out with these.

If its any help, it is probable that at least part of the family were RC. I know they are in the next generation because son James (my G-Grandfather) brought up his boys as Catholics and his wife brought up the girls as C of E.

This then is my brick-wall. Having had a lot of luck with finding others who have shared information or who have proved to be amazing detectives, I have managed to push all my other branches as far as they possibly can go. I'm hoping someone here can at least nudge me in the right direction with my IRWIN and RUSSELL family branches.

There is an Irving family from the 1871 census with similar names but having bought two birth certs. for this family I can confirm they are not mine.

Thanks for reading
 
Good Luck

Tony 
 
 
 
 

[hume]

Hi Tony,

I think Robert and Ellen may have been born before James and Mary married. Here's a few births, listed with just the mother, Mary Russell.

• James Irving Russell - 16th Sep 1863, High Church, Glasgow
• John Russell - 30th Oct 1865, High Church, Glasgow
• Robert Russell - 1st May 1867, High Church, Glasgow
• Ellen Russell - 20th Jun 1872, High Church, Glasgow
• Samuel Duncan Russell - 27th Feb 1874, High Church, Glasgow

Can't find Mary (or the first three children) in 1871 yet.

hume24

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi Hume24
I am very impressed!!!
Where on earth did you dig up that information?

I'm presuming that James is the father since James IRVING Russell has his surname (Irwin-Irvine-Irving) as a middle name ().

I wonder why they didn't marry? Would it have been likely it was because he was Catholic and she wasn't?

 
Thank you
Tony

[hume]

Hi Tony,

I always look under mother's maiden name, just in case there's other children before marriage. In this case, nearly all of them. I still can't find them in 1871, but here's an interesting entry in 1861 for the Irvines:

Residence: 15 College St Back Land, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Ellen Irvine, f, head, 60, househol[d]er, Ireland
Mary ", f, dau., 30, mill worker, Ireland
James ", m, son, 25, puddler iron foundry, Ireland
Elizabeth ", f, dau., 23, mill worker, Ireland
Catherine Coligand, f, g-dau., 7, luceark georgow (?), Glasgow, Lanark
Mary McCaskill, f, g-dau., 1, -, Glasgow, Lanark

hume24

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi Hume 24
Thanks for replying with more hopeful news.

On the plus side for this family of IRVINES, they all have the family names that will be used in the next generation.

Another plus is James' occupation - a bit of a coincidence him being an Iron Puddler although it was a common job looking at the 1861 census for occupations.

His age matches that of the 1891 census in Jarrow but not that of the 1881 or 1901 - I haven't a clue why the parents' ages are out but the children's were nearly spot on.

Thanks a million for all this.

Tony

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi
I bought a look at the image of James IRVING Russell and he was registered as illegitimate. The address is 94 High Street, which, if my map reading skills are accurate, means that Mary Russell lived around the corner from James Irvine and family in College Street in the early 1860's.

Still no sign of a marriage for them in Scotland or England.

I'm presuming that James Irving Russell died young because my G-Grandfather was named James and I can't see that there would be two living sons around with the same name. I can't find a death for him yet - but I'm beginning to distrust the ScotlandsPeople database for its accuracy of searching. Its amazingly expensive too. I think I'd found most of my other 800+ relatives with the Ancestry census and BMD for about two months worth of searching. Cost, about £16.00. I've paid ScotlandsPeople £18.00    for very little return.

Back to the hunt.
 
Tony

[hume]

Hi Tony,

Sorry to hear you are finding ScotlandsPeople expensive. I find it quite reasonable and efficient, given you have access to certificates over a range of 100 years. You may find this thread interesting. It shows the use of soundex and wildcards can be effective in SP searches, therefore saving your credits for other uses!

I can't find a marriage for James and Mary either. It looks like they went to England in c. 1876 (going by young Mary's birth in the 1881 census) and there's no marriage showing up to 1875 so it looks as though it's an English marriage or they didn't at all.

As for the origins of Mary Russell, does the birth certificate of James Irving Russell give an occupation for the mother? Also, who was the informant? Was it Mary herself?

Trying to help.

hume24

[whpool]

Hi Tony,
This is going to be no help to you at all!! I just wanted to 'share' - I'm having same trouble getting a handle on my Irvin/Urvin/Irving side - all from the Northumberland area acc. to census.  Two or three children before marriage and then another name change!!!
Sorry I can't help but hope it makes you feel a little better to know someone else is having the same problems
whpool

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi Hume24

Mary's occupation is Flax Mill Spinner.
Mary is the informant signing with her mark X.

thanks
Tony

Hi whpool
thanks for your support