Author Topic: Annan - an elusive seaman  (Read 28803 times)

Offline kenjo

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 21 November 07 23:59 GMT (UK) »
I love how you are enlightening us of the voyage that John was on....I am enjoying it.

I think I have found Andrew Elliot...
1851 Census.
Milgillfoot, Westerkirk, Dumfries.
24yrs, servant,  Carpenter (journeyman), born Half Morton...

I couldn't find him in Dumfries in the 1861c..

also 1851c There is Isabella Elliot 27yrs, servant, at Port St, The Manse, Annan... born Halfmerton...

So Isabella was there working for years...

JO

I will add that I don't know who put the Marriage of Janet and James Jeffery...on the IGI...even though it does make sense...re John leaving for a voyage at the same time 1848....from Annan...
why has she gone back to her maiden name....? I never found any children from this union...maybe James Died soon after marriage...
Pattillo, Connon, Shand, Mackie, Hickey, Brooks, Ryan.

Offline kenjo

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 22 November 07 00:30 GMT (UK) »
After you forwarded on the Death certificate to me....
I found this..

Margaret Glover.
Born, 13 Jul, 1794..Cummertrees, Dumfries, Scotland  (so she was 5 yrs older than she implied)

father John Glover ,...mother...Helen Batcliffe.....(Helen or Hellen Babcliffe or Radcliffe or Ratcliffe )
This is the Batch no:C118172 put this in the batch....box with British isles in the region section...and John Glover in the father section..and you will find all his children...sometimes it is best not to put the mothers surname in when doing a general search '''as it may not pick up all the spellings.
regards,
JO
Pattillo, Connon, Shand, Mackie, Hickey, Brooks, Ryan.

Offline Fear na mara

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 27 November 07 18:22 GMT (UK) »
PART I
Thanks to Jo’s research and guidance, I now have John’s immediate family and the families of both lots of grandparents. The next target is to get a view of the family network around John and more important, what network would have been there for his son, John William
Remember John and his wife were dead when their son was just two years old. I have evidence of his care at a couple of points in his life with his Aunt Georgina and Uncle William: this couple were childless and lived in some comfort. William Durham was a silk merchant who threw in with Jays and opened the Mourning Warehouse in Regent Street, employing over two hundred staff in the Regent Street premises and many more as outworkers. Jays led the way in provision of the most exacting standards of mourning attire, jewellery, accessories and could discreetly arrange for cremation. John William’s maternal grandfather (and Aunt Georgina’s father) was an export merchant, living at a very expensive address in Southwark: there is a whiff that not all his dealings were entirely legal, but they were certainly profitable – and they lived up to 1880. Georgina and William could certainly afford to feed an extra mouth. Besides – our John was making very serious money as a Captain in Far Eastern waters. Masters with Foreign Trade Certificates were not cheap and John had trained with James Gales, who had been commended by the royal society for his work in meteorology. The ship Rifle did not lose a day from its schedule for the birth of the Captain’s son, nor for the death of his wife: time was/is money. Young John William would not have returned from the Far East with just his cot and blankets.
But money is not everything so had he turned to Scotland what family might have welcomed him.

Using Jo’s batch technique I went back for John senior’s family
at Half Morton, Dumfries, Scotland   Batch No. 7426817
The Grandparents - James Elliot + Isabella Broatch   
Their children, 
2 sons; JOHN (24/07/1799)   and ROBERT  (18/09/1807)

4 daughters; JANNET (01/08/1801), MARGARET (03/08/1803)
MARY (09/06/1806) SARAH (11/03/1821)
I am assuming that John (1799) is my John’s father.
Surviving daughters likely to marry and thus difficult to trace – leave for now.

What is the extent of Elliots in Half Morton, could there be room for confusion with first names ?
Check all Elliots in Half Morton on 1841 Census.
Scotland’s People gives me 14.

First,  the family you put together for me
John       (1799)       occup Joiner
Margaret    (1793, neé Glover)

Daughters         Sons
Helen (1820),          Andrew, (01/03/1827)   
Isabela ( 1822),       John      (30/03/1831)
Jannet (14/12/1824)      Joseph   (13/07/1834)

N.B.  Helen and Isabella not listed with John and Margret.

Other Elliots in Half Morton 1841

Cadgillside  (?), HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES   828/00 002/00 003   
GEORGE   M   30   born in county   occup – Cloger ??   
ISABELA     F     25      do.         
Mary       F         4         do.      
ROBERT    M    25     do.    wood-cutter      
Thomas Craig   M   18   do.   wood-cutter      

Cadgil      HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES   828/00 003/00 001   
JAMES      M   65   do.   GLAZIER   
JAMES      M   20   do.   GLAZIER      
JANNET           F   20   do.         
Isabella     F       1       do.   

MARY           F    30    HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES   828/00 003/00 011   
JOHN          M   19   HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES   828/00 004/00 003   

PART II to follow
Elliot,  Baverstock,  Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe

Offline Fear na mara

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 27 November 07 18:24 GMT (UK) »
PART II

Follow-up Margaret, my John’s mother, at Cummertrees
Widowed at Half Morton by the ’51 census and living with her son Jospeh.
10 years later, living in Annan at 13 Cumberland Terrace with daughter-in-law
Ann – my John’s first wife. Margret died of a long term paralysis on 30th march 1867 at Annan.  (from Margret’s death cert)

Father, John Glover, farmer, born Cummertrees.
Mother, Helen Radcliff

Then IGI batch gives children of John Glover + Helen Babcliff (?)      

Jane   4th-Apr            1773
Helen   16-Dec      1776
Catherine 23-Apr       1779
Jannet   03-Jul        1781
Mary   16th-Dec   1787
Margaret  13-Jul    1794

Margaret, as you noted, shaves her age – even when she was pegging out.
Perhaps not surprising that her son did the same – if not quite as brazenly.
Six sisters presents a bit of a challenge for research – due to the name changes.

John’s wife Ann.
I have found a death in 1862– but it is not very strong. ANN   ELLIOT  other name AITCHISON age “U” at Ewes/Dumfries.
Nothing further on Ann so far.

John’s sisters.
So far  - Jo has found Isabella, a servant at the Manse, Port Street, Annan, in 1851 and again in 1861. I have  a marriage 9/12/1867 between Isabella Elliot (dob 1821) and  Andrew Irving (1813), thereafter living at Backlady Street, Annan, until Isabella’s death in 1899. That seems like many years of loyal service in the Manse brought to an end by a marriage of matures, he would have been, 54 and she, 46. They are certainly available at the critical time in young John William’s life, married five years before he was orphaned and living until he was 29, by which time John William had already exhibited at the Royal Academy and moved to Ireland where he was living a few doors away from James Joyce.

Jo also found a marriage, possibly for sister Jannet Elliot to James Jeffrey in  1848. But Jo also found Jannet Elliot, born about 1827, a servant at Long Meadow House, Annan, in 1861 census with a probable transcription error on birth place born Kalfmorldie, Dumfriesshire for Half Morton. We do have a competitor for the position that is James Elliot’s wife, Jannet, about the same age. I have tried for this James and the daughter Isabella in the 1861 census and got a nil return – so it is possible that this Jannet is now a widow and working as a servant at the House. This explanation would resolve  Mrs Jannet Jeffrey – changing back to her maiden name, Elliot (and wanting to be called MS).
Robert, the wood cutter has dropped off the Half Morton census by 1851 and needs searching. George, the Cloger ( or whatever that is) has dropped off also. Indeed by 1851 there are just three Elliots left in Half Morton, including our Margaret and her son, my John’s young brother, Joseph.

Jo has led on most of this and it has been a great help to me, though time is really not on my side at present. Need to draw breath and be advised on next steps and advice on poor assumptions, bad moves or explantion of Clogers
E
Elliot,  Baverstock,  Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe


Offline PrueM

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 27 November 07 19:37 GMT (UK) »
I am reading this thread with great interest!  Jo what a great job you have done - Grandad Harry would be proud!!  :-* :-* :-*  If/when I get some time, I will try to help out with the digging, too.

Fear na mara - I know (I think!) that "na mara" means "of the sea", but what does "Fear" mean (or is that in English?!)

Prue

Offline Fear na mara

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 27 November 07 22:11 GMT (UK) »
Fear = man, plural = fir
You have the next bit - na mara = of the sea.
if you want "woman of the sea" = bean na mara.

I am so glad that you join me in applauding Jo's work on my family. Do you know that she had most of this sorted within six hours of my first post.
Elliot,  Baverstock,  Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe

Offline kenjo

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 27 November 07 22:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi E!
Lovely to hear from you, I know you are a very busy person....but you have found time for some digging....and once again, a story to boot....wonderfulll....love it.
If Prue gets time to investigate...you will be given great advice.....(lovely to see gorgeous Harry again, Prue) 8)

I have to go out soon, so can't do many excavations....at the mo;
but I notice that John and Margaret Elliot have possibly been using the Scottish naming pattern..
so...
Helen -----1st girl named after mother's mother
Isabella -----2nd girl named after father's mother
Andrew------1st boy named after  (should be father's father)
John----------2nd boy named after mother's father...

If this is true....then John Elliot's father should be Andrew....
If this is the case you may need to try out of the parish of Half Morton...
I will have a quick look now...and see..

But it still could be what you have found...and there could be another reason why they  named their first boy James...
speak soon,

by the way.....what did John jr exhibit?
Jo


Pattillo, Connon, Shand, Mackie, Hickey, Brooks, Ryan.

Offline kenjo

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 27 November 07 22:42 GMT (UK) »
Hi E!
No I haven't found an obvious match..between an Andrew and Isabella...so I think you may be right here but...this is danger territory...and there are gaps in a lot of parish records in the 1700s....so take the family you cleverly found but keep in mind that there could be another family..
I will look for an old Andrew in the 41 census..
sorry to put a dampener on it..
Jo


Pattillo, Connon, Shand, Mackie, Hickey, Brooks, Ryan.

Offline Fear na mara

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Re: Annan - an elusive seaman
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 27 November 07 23:05 GMT (UK) »
I wrote my reply and the wretched server threw me out. Apologies - I was just hearing the thud  of hooves and the yips of the hounds and seeing you off again in hot pursuit of the weaving and ducking Elliots. And it seems that Prue may be taking a quick swig before she pulls on her hunting gear.
No apology needed for the strong amber light of warning. I have fallen often enough for the plausible name, age and birth-place. I am working on two fronts - trying to press ahead with the research and also working on a Powerpoint presentation for Thursday night - Mother's 98th and she knows nothing about her father's life after her fifth birthday and really not that much before.
Elliot,  Baverstock,  Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe