beattie or other surname

[adrian denney]

following from a fantastic start that gadget gave me  i am now at a puzzle. 

i am trying to find the children of Margaret beattie of canonbie . I was given the children as follows (not by gadget)
Francis Henderson  24/1/1863 canonbie
Robert jackson 26/2/1866 canonbie
thomas hornsby 1871 england ?
Elizabeth beattie 19/7/1861

i have been on family search  and on their IGI list batch c118141
have all the children  plus two more but all surnames  beattie ........................
Francis beattie 24/1/1863
Robert beattie 26/2/1866
Elizabeth beattie 3/3/1874
john beattie 19/7/1861
Robert beattie 25/1/1864
thomas hornsby can't find any where

i assume that there aren't two Margaret beattie's in canonbie having children on the same day with the same names ?!  i would assume that the only way i can sort this is by birth record on Scotland's people !?     

big question is entering them on ones family tree which surname would you use    the birth one  (assume beattie)  or  know by ?

i just keep coming up with the most common names in canonbie  with littles hoggs a few Armstrong's  and now beatties !!!!!!!!!!!!

any comments  most welcome

[kenjo]

Hi There,
This is difficult to sort out isn't it......thanks to Gadget..your on your way...

Now I have this 1871 census....which you may already have....but it does help to see things a bit clearer.
1871census
Sykehead, Canonbie.

Elizabeth Nixon, head, 60yrs, Canonbie.
John Irving, dau, 27yrs, dressmaker, Canonbie..............(is this Ann?)
William McGlasson, son, 21yrs, Coalminer, Canonbie.
Frank Henderson, grandson, 8yrs,  Canonbie.......(son of Margaret Beattie)
Robert Jackson, grandson, 5yrs, Canonbie...........(son of Margaret Beattie)
William Steel, grandson, 2yrs,  Castleton, Roxbughshire.

Now, the way I see it ...
These Births registered in Canonbie......with mother Margaret Beattie....are all Illegitimate...
Margaret knew who the fathers were of all the children.....now if you were to buy the birth certificates....most likely... there will be a corrected entry on each certificate....down the lefthand side...where Margaret is trying to claim some help....and she names who the father was.....this is also available from Scotlandspeople...when purchasing the birth certs.
All the children will know who their father was....so ..on your family tree...you will be able to say they are....
who they say they are....in the census...and then you tick the box that says this couple never married..(the parents I mean).
John beattie 19/7/1861--------------don't know.
Francis beattie 24/1/1863-----------will be Henderson
Robert beattie 25/1/1864.....this child died.........death cert would name the father most likely.
Robert beattie 26/2/1866-----------will be Jackson
Elizabeth beattie 3/3/1874---------don't know..

These living children .....when married ..would most likely say who their father was....but say reputed..

The child called Thomas if he was in fact a son of your Margaret..his Christening .would be had to find in England as the mormons probably haven't filmed that late....and  in Scotland the other children fall into the time frame of 1855-1875 civil reg.....which the Mormons were allowed to film...and that is how you have been able to find the births on the igi....you would have to look on the freebmd's to find Thomas in England.

hope this helps a bit.
JO

[Gadget]

Hello Adrian

I've taken a look of one of the certificates (Francis) and find that there is no information about his father on it. it just says illegitimate in brackets after his name and gives the mother as Margaret Beattie, farm servant. There is no Corrected Entry.  I would gamble on the others being the same and so, legally, their surname is Beattie.


However, as Jo has pointed out, they probably knew who their father was reputed to be and locally, more than likely, they were known by that surname, as shown in the census entries.

It would seem unwise to lose that information from your family tree, so I think I would be adding 'known as <surname>' on it, if it were me. If you have information on the father, then this could be penciled in. However, there is no absolute proof that this was the case, just repute.

Regards

Gadget

[kenjo]

Yes you are quite right Gadget....
and I should have said ....the notes should include the Beattie being kept..in birth notes...
I stand corrected.
Jo

[Gadget]

Three possible birth registrations for Thomas Hornsby/Beattie:

As Thomas Beattie:

Sept Quarter, 1871, vol 10b, page 435,  Longtown, Cumberland

Sept Quarter, 1871, vol 10b, page 506, Wigton, Cumbria

As Thomas Hornsby:

Dec Quarter, 1871, vol 10b, page 463, Wigton, Cumbria


Gadget

[Annette7]

I too have been looking at this since it intrigued me.

I agree with what has already been said - if they were always known by their father's surname then it should be shown.   By the way, is there  possibily another child too - on 1871 Census as well as Frank Henderson and Robert Jackson Elizabeth has another grandson with her: William Steel bc.1869 Castleton, Roxburghshire.   Can't find birth for him though.

I'd also noted the birth entries in England - the Thomas born Longtown died 1887 I think.   I also noted on 1871 Census at Rosley, Cumberland (which is registration district of Wigton) a Margaret Beattie aged 28 (?) was working as a servant.

I haven't looked at any of your other posts so forgive me if I now go over old ground.   Did you realise you are going to have similar issues with Margaret Beattie's mother - Elizabeth Nixon.

She too appears to have been unmarried but had at least 4 children:
Robert Little b.21/3/1831 Canonbie, shown as son of Robert Little and Elizabeth Nixon.
Margaret Beattie b.25/5/1841 Canonbie, dau. of John Beattie and Elizabeth Nixon
Ann Irvine bp.17/4/1842 Canonbie, dau. of John Irvine and Elizabeth Nixon
William McGlasson b.8/2/1850 Canonbie, son of William McGlasson and Elizabeth Nixon

1841 Census shows 2 other children but as relationships not given I don't know if they belonged to Elizabeth, nor can I find birth/baptisms, but listing on census would suggest they were.

Mary Wilson        45
Elizabeth Nixon   35
Robert Little        10
George Farrage    7
Davina Farrage     3
Margaret Beattie  2 weeks.

Looked at death certificate for Margaret Beattie - again, forgive me if you already have this.  She is shown as illegitimate, dau. of Elizabeth Nixon (no father given) and died 10/9/1892 Mumbie Cottage Canonbie of Apoplexy 13 1/2 days.   Informant Thomas Hornsby, son.

Good Luck.

Annette

   

[JoMC]

It is worth linking to the other thread to avoid duplication:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,270265.0.html


Gadget 

[adrian denney]

thanks for all that annette    it would seem that william steel is the son of ann irvine  daughter of elizabeth nixon   and he was born castleton 1868    poss death 1886  canonbie .     he could have been born   william irvine rather than  william steel .

 the puzzle goes on    i wonder if there would be a parish poor book for canonbie   if they got money or tryed   would it be recorded .............................. or in the parish minutes  could the vicar have  shamed  the mothers for having "natural children ""     mmmmmmmmmmmmm ?

[JoMC]

It would be in  the Sasine minutes books, Adrian, if anywhere - they might be at the Ewart in Dumfries or in Edinburgh.

Gadget