Author Topic: The Magnificent Seven  (Read 2594 times)

Offline garethgriffiths

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The Magnificent Seven
« on: Saturday 08 December 07 10:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi
I am seeking more details on these two photos of a possible relative maybe his name is Griffith Morgan RWF born Llandeniolen or David Jones Royal Engineers born Llanrwst.  You will see that the man on the horse ha a royal enfield rifle I think and that he is on the front row extreme right in the group of seven sergeants.

I think it has to be the Boer War period and for some reason they were in my great Aunts photo box, if it is David Jones it was her father or if is Griffith Morgan it was her uncle.  Either was at least he was a Welshman!
regards Gareth
PS I suppose they may be too much to colourise do you think?
Gareth
GRIFFITHS - Llandudno/Eglwysbach/Glan Conwy/BetwsYCoed/Llanbeblig/Caernarvon
BLEYTHIN - Llanbeblig
EVANS - Eglwysbach
JONES - Conwy/Llanrwst/TalYBont/Rowen
KEMP - Middlesbrough/Southport/Ainderby Quernhow/Kilburn/Sutton/North Riding
BONNER - Middlesbrough/Walsall/Escombe/South Hylton/Westoning, SMITH
TAYLOR/ORTH - Middlesbrough/Southport
TURNOCK - StokeOnTrent Goldenhill, Odd Rode/Astbury, Cheshire
TUNSTALL/WILCOX/DOYLE/BOYLE - Stoke on Trent (Goldenhill)
HARP - Fenton
ROGERS/STANTON - Chester

Offline garethgriffiths

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 08 December 07 11:00 GMT (UK) »
Just to ask what does anyone know about the photographer A. Cecil Coyne of St. Pietermaritzburg, Natal?

He must have had a business there of some sort during the Boer War period?

Is it a horse or a mule as David Jones was an ostler at one point in his life.
Please can you also tell me about the hat, uniform, rifle, water bottle etc. as it all paints broader details for me.  My dad is 75 and he is most interested in finding out about this picture.
thanks,
Gareth
GRIFFITHS - Llandudno/Eglwysbach/Glan Conwy/BetwsYCoed/Llanbeblig/Caernarvon
BLEYTHIN - Llanbeblig
EVANS - Eglwysbach
JONES - Conwy/Llanrwst/TalYBont/Rowen
KEMP - Middlesbrough/Southport/Ainderby Quernhow/Kilburn/Sutton/North Riding
BONNER - Middlesbrough/Walsall/Escombe/South Hylton/Westoning, SMITH
TAYLOR/ORTH - Middlesbrough/Southport
TURNOCK - StokeOnTrent Goldenhill, Odd Rode/Astbury, Cheshire
TUNSTALL/WILCOX/DOYLE/BOYLE - Stoke on Trent (Goldenhill)
HARP - Fenton
ROGERS/STANTON - Chester

Offline themonsstar

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 08 December 07 11:37 GMT (UK) »
The photos look like a mounted infantry unit in SA War 1900-1902

Offline km1971

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 08 December 07 12:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi Gareth

This is going to be difflicult. I know nothing about horses, but if this isn’t a mule it has got to be one of the ugliest horses ever. The Boer War ‘consumed’ hundreds of thousands of horse, so it would not surprise me if they had to use mules.

The rifle is a Lee-Metford sitting in a leather saddle bucket. The rider keeps one arm through the sling so when he dismounts in a hurry his rifle comes with him, rather than disappearing when the mule gets spooked. It had an eight round ‘magazine’ into which you feed single rounds one at a time after pulling back the bolt. It was not designed to be changed. It looks like a standard infantry weapon rather than the shorter carbine intended for mounted units. See - http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-weapons/303.htm.

The boots also look infantry rather than cavalry issue, so they could be the mounted infantry section of an infantry regiment, kitted out with what was available. The bandolier held fifty rounds, and he would have had another 100 or so in the saddle bags.

The Sergeant in the middle is wearing a medal ribbon. It could be for the Queen’s South Africa medal, which was available late on in the war. Any man arriving in South Africa after mid 1901 say, would not get his medal until after the war had finished. The variety of hats could also indicate that it late on in the war. Is the man on the right in the front the same as the top photograph? Again his hat has changed to what he could find. And the water bottle doesn’t look standard issue to the infantry either.

They all look clean shaven which was more likely in an infantry regiment than one of the dozens of irregular mounted units created just for the Boer War, but I am surprised they are not showing any sort of badge. The only other thing I can see is that a few of the stripes look removable for easy washing of the tunic, and that must be one of the first wrist watches in the British Army.

Ken


Offline atom12

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 08 December 07 12:41 GMT (UK) »
 :) Hi

A very good description of the photos Ken.  That 'horse' most certainly looks like a mule, and they all look like mounted infantry of the Boer war period.

Reference the watch!  I am wondering if it could be war booty!  Just a thought, as I don't think that wrist watches would be issued then, would they?   ::)
Reid: Nicol: Peterhead and Aberdeen
McDonald: Greig: Milne: Aberdeenshire
Moreland: Lanarkshire, Whitehaven in Cumbria and Ireland
Cunningham: Lanarkshire, Cumbria and Ireland
Halliday: Falkirk, Stirlingshire and Ireland
Redpath: Stirlingshire and Banbridge
McKay:

Offline garethgriffiths

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 08 December 07 18:48 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for your comments guys, I did wonder about the wrist watch, it seems my man has a fob watch and I have had a look at my great grandfathers but its different yet I do say it looks like him but my father disagrees, he was born in Llanrwst 4/3/1878 so that would make him about 22-24 by 1900-1902 if it is him.  What do you guys think, he the man in the photo older?  Puttees and spurs and hob nail boots?
Yes the hat is different well spotted, wonder why?

What do you make of the items lying to the right side of the photo, saddles, tarpaulins or what?

regards Gareth
GRIFFITHS - Llandudno/Eglwysbach/Glan Conwy/BetwsYCoed/Llanbeblig/Caernarvon
BLEYTHIN - Llanbeblig
EVANS - Eglwysbach
JONES - Conwy/Llanrwst/TalYBont/Rowen
KEMP - Middlesbrough/Southport/Ainderby Quernhow/Kilburn/Sutton/North Riding
BONNER - Middlesbrough/Walsall/Escombe/South Hylton/Westoning, SMITH
TAYLOR/ORTH - Middlesbrough/Southport
TURNOCK - StokeOnTrent Goldenhill, Odd Rode/Astbury, Cheshire
TUNSTALL/WILCOX/DOYLE/BOYLE - Stoke on Trent (Goldenhill)
HARP - Fenton
ROGERS/STANTON - Chester

Offline garethgriffiths

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 08 December 07 19:10 GMT (UK) »
Having looked on Free BMD I can see an Albert Cecil Coyne born in Maidstone in the June Quarter 1872 but there is no marriage or death so he could have toddled off to Natal I suppose to develop a business out of the war.

Who's Who in Natal 1933 shows him still there -
Coyne, Albert Cecil - b. 19 April 1872 Maidstone, Kent

Gareth
GRIFFITHS - Llandudno/Eglwysbach/Glan Conwy/BetwsYCoed/Llanbeblig/Caernarvon
BLEYTHIN - Llanbeblig
EVANS - Eglwysbach
JONES - Conwy/Llanrwst/TalYBont/Rowen
KEMP - Middlesbrough/Southport/Ainderby Quernhow/Kilburn/Sutton/North Riding
BONNER - Middlesbrough/Walsall/Escombe/South Hylton/Westoning, SMITH
TAYLOR/ORTH - Middlesbrough/Southport
TURNOCK - StokeOnTrent Goldenhill, Odd Rode/Astbury, Cheshire
TUNSTALL/WILCOX/DOYLE/BOYLE - Stoke on Trent (Goldenhill)
HARP - Fenton
ROGERS/STANTON - Chester

Offline km1971

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 08 December 07 19:14 GMT (UK) »
There is a certainly a saddle there, and maybe a tarpaulin or groundsheet. Just a thought: both photographs are by the same photographer, so I suppose they were taken at the same time. In which case he has borrowed the cowboy hat for the picture. Maybe it was captured from the Boers.

I don't think wrist watches were army issue, so it must have been his own. The man on the left also has some sort of wrist band. This is probably a wrist watch as well tied on loose. They did not have id tags in the Boer War. There was a small pocket inside the tunic for a small id card. I have one for a sergeant in the Imperial Yeomanry who was awarded a posthumous VC in WW1.

Ken

Offline garethgriffiths

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Re: The Magnificent Seven
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 08 December 07 19:16 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone see two ghost faces between the mule's legs?
Gareth
GRIFFITHS - Llandudno/Eglwysbach/Glan Conwy/BetwsYCoed/Llanbeblig/Caernarvon
BLEYTHIN - Llanbeblig
EVANS - Eglwysbach
JONES - Conwy/Llanrwst/TalYBont/Rowen
KEMP - Middlesbrough/Southport/Ainderby Quernhow/Kilburn/Sutton/North Riding
BONNER - Middlesbrough/Walsall/Escombe/South Hylton/Westoning, SMITH
TAYLOR/ORTH - Middlesbrough/Southport
TURNOCK - StokeOnTrent Goldenhill, Odd Rode/Astbury, Cheshire
TUNSTALL/WILCOX/DOYLE/BOYLE - Stoke on Trent (Goldenhill)
HARP - Fenton
ROGERS/STANTON - Chester