Where is this?

[andycand]

Hi JAP
Mary Jane (wife) was still alive in 1891, described as a widow living with daughters Sarah & Isabella. It was her birthplace of Branton, Scotland on the 1891 census that started this topic. I can't find any of them in 1881 even ignoring the surname.
Andy

[JAP]

Hello again Andy,

Of course you are right! 

1891
39 Rupert St, St James, Westminster
(the widowed Jane HADDON and g'daughter Eliza TYLER were at 115 Rupert St)
Mary Jane TYLER, Widow, 49, Charwoman (neither Employer nor Employed), b Branton Scotland
Sarah E(?) TYLER, Single, 20, Domestic Servant, b Pimlico London
Isabella TYLER, Single, 17, Domestic Servant, b Pimlico London
(Jane transcribed as Jesse; Pimlico transcribed as Gimlico).

So, what do you think?  Was she really a Widow?  Or is the James I found in 1891 her husband who has scarpered (though he's also in St James Westminster) and she thought that saying she was Widow sounded more respectable?  And is he also the James I found in 1901 with (apparently) a new wife?  Might Mary Jane have died between 1891 and 1901 - can anyone find her in 1901?

Perhaps some fresh pairs of eyes might find something in 1881 - James, Mary Jane/Jane, Sarah Ann, Isabella or Eliza ...

Very puzzling,

JAP

[andycand]

Hi JAP
Paula42 has started another topic re the 1881 census but hasn't linked it to this topic. I did put up a message on it but don't know how to link to this.

I have come across a case before were 2 people separated for some reason and in a later census both are described as widowed so perhaps this is similar

Andy

[Gadget]

Here's the link to the other thread:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,273380.0.html

Gadget

[andycand]

Hi
I've found the TYLER family in 1881 at 2 Laurence St, St Giles in the Field, London transcribed as LYLES

James age 30
Jane 37 (born Carlisle its getting closer)
Amelia 10 (must be Sarah Amelia)
Jane 7 (twin to Isabella)
Bella 7 (Isabella)
Elizabeth 5
Eliza 3

Andy

[Gadget]

Well done, Andy 

Brampton and Carlisle are so close that it seems that is the area.

See Here

Gadget

[JAP]

Hi
I've found the TYLER family in 1881 at 2 Laurence St, St Giles in the Field, London transcribed as LYLES

James age 30
Jane 37 (born Carlisle its getting closer)
Amelia 10 (must be Sarah Amelia)
Jane 7 (twin to Isabella)
Bella 7 (Isabella)
Elizabeth 5
Eliza 3

Andy

Brilliant work, Andy.

But this family really is a difficult one.

1881
Comparing letters, LYLES is surely TYLER - though the error quite understandable.
*James b "Wolveton" is finally about the right age and birthplace (30 - given that he was b 1850 in Potterspury which includes Wolverton) and his occupation (Carman) fits with other censuses
*Jane b Carlisle is also getting closer to her right age and place of birth (37 - though she was b 1842 which would give an age of ca 39; Carlisle - and though she was b Brampton Cumberland - but Carlisle was probably the nearest large town which a London enumerator would have heard of)
*Amelia 10 b London - not bad except for her name; she was born Sarah Ann in Pimlico and was Sarah A in 1871
*Bella 7 b London - not bad though she was born Isabella in Pimlico in 1873
*Jane 7 b London - need to check (yes a Jane TYLER, same quarter, same place - St Geo H Square, same page - I hadn't noticed this).
*Elizabeth 5 b London - need to check
*Eliza 3 b London - fits beautifully with granddaughter 13yo Eliza TYLER with grandmother Jane HADDON in 1891.

Paula must be thrilled by your discovery.

Congratulations Andy. 

JAP

[andycand]

Hi JAP

*Amelia 10 b London - not bad except for her name; she was born Sarah Ann in Pimlico and was Sarah A in 1871

According to FreeBMD, Sarah's middle name was AMELIA, Sarah Amelia TYLER born March Qtr 1871 St George Hanover Square, Vol 1a Page 340

Bella 7 b London - not bad though she was born Isabella in Pimlico in 1873

I've come across this abreviation several times in my Scottish research but didn't think to search on it on this occasion. I might have found it quicker if I had.

Given that some other members of the family were known by their middle names, I wonder if Elizabeth is a first or middle name.

Andy

[JAP]

Hello again Andy,
Sorry about the middle name of Amelia - I don't know where I got Ann from!  I see that, for some unknown reason, way back in reply #5 on this thread where I quoted the birth references for Sarah and Isabella, I omitted Sarah's middle name ...  She was Sarah E in one census - I guess for 'Emelia'!  Yes, Bella is, of course, fine for Isabella - it just (like Sarah going by her middle name) made the family all that much harder to find (though - I've just checked - FamilySearch does combine Bella with Isabella!)  I have to admit that I had a look at all the girls named Eliza (no surname) b in London in 1878 +/- 2 but obviously the surname as Lyles just sailed right over my head (shouldn't have, I guess - L and S being fairly common mistranscriptions for T).
Anyway, yours was a brilliant find and I again congratulate you.
JAP