Keeping Up With The Jones's

[Tsu]

My great grandfather was an enigma.  Born Thomas Jones in London, all we knew of him was that he married my great grandmother Ellen Rondeau in 1913 (six years after my grandmother was born), he had a brother called George who died in France in 1916 and he worked for the brewery looking after the horses.

We asked my grandmother and her sister before they died for family memories, and they said they never met any other family on their father's side.

Scroll forward to one year ago and Yours Truly decides to start the family tree.

I find brother George Jones on the CWGC web site from the service number on his WW1 medals, and that tells me that he was 43 when he died in 1916 and his mother and father were called George and Martha Jones.  I have my great grandfather's marriage and death certs which tell me his age at death (51) meaning that he was born in 1881 and his father's name on his marriage certificate is given as George Jones, Shipping Agent.

So far so good...

I trawl through all the census records for the time and eventually find George Jones, Shipping Agent of the right age, married to Martha of the right (and fairly unusual) name (GRIM), with son George, son Thomas and two other daughters (Elizabeth and Eleanor) that I never knew existed.

I found the likely marriage of George Jones and Martha Grim at St. James the Great, Bethnal Green, in 1871 and it gives his father's name as Thomas Jones, deceased.

Now, the only Thomas Jones in the area with a son called George of the right age is a brewers agent, BUT, he was still alive in 1871 when George and Martha married.

However, there was another Jones family in the right place, at the right time, with all the right ages, but the father's name wasn't Thomas, it was John.  Added to this is the fact that Martha Grim was a servant in the house of the eldest Jones son in 1861.  Right age, right name.

Now to add to the mixture, George and Martha had a daughter Ruth in 1868 before they got married and the same (perhaps eldest brother) of George had a Ruth Jones of the right age living in his house in the 1881 census and she was listed as his niece.

Still with me?  Well done...

Now, which of the two Jones families is more likely to be a match?  The one with the correct father's name but the wrong death date, or the wrong father's name and the other bits and pieces that do add up?

I know that Jones is a fairly common name, but does the co-incidence about the brother with Martha Grim and Ruth Jones make it an almost certain?

Any and all advice or suggestions gratefully received.

[Arranroots]

Hi Tsu

Welcome to Rootschat! 

What documentation do you have so far?

The info on certs can be helpful, such as marriage witnesses - sometimes you have to take a gamble on one!

Have you traced both families right back through the censuses?  (Can you give references so that we can help - there isn't enough info in your post to do this, although I can understand why you kept it brief)

Hoping to help

kind regards, Arranroots 

[Josephine]

Tsu,

I personally would take the family where the bits and pieces add up.  Especially with such unusual names as Grim involved.

I've seen too many errors or lies on marriage certificates to expect them to be infallible.

I would print out the census records, etc., for the family you have ruled out and keep them in a separate file.

In cases where things don't always match up (I've got quite a few), it helps to purchase certificates pertaining to other members of the family (if you can afford them).  See who the witnesses were to his siblings' marriages, etc.  See how they recorded their father's name.

My great-grandmother's marriage record lists her father's occupation as an actor.  Wrong.  My great-grandfather and one of his sisters got their father's first name wrong (they were very young when he died). 

Sometimes it can't be carved in stone and you have to make your best guess based on the preponderance of evidence.

Regards,
Josephine

[Tsu]

Thanks for both of your replies.

With regards to documentation, I've only just managed to get the right BC for Thomas Jones (my grandfather, born 1881).  It took me six attempts and I have the certificates for five other Thomas Jones's born in east London that year.  I didn't realise until quite recently that you could ask them to check the reference details and then have a part refund if you were wrong...  So I've been loathe to order loads of certificates because there are just so may possibles with such a common name.

I currently only have:
Marriage cert for George Jones and Martha grim 1871 (with father's name of Thomas Jones, deceased) The witnesses were the couple who ran the mission behind the church (I googled tham and looked in the 1871 census) they were not related to George or Martha that I can see.
Birth cert of his son (my grandfather Thomas) born 1881
Marriage cert of Thomas 1881 and Ellen Rondeau in 1913
Death cert of Thomas Jones in 1932 aged 51.

If I did order what I think might be George Jones's birth certificate, how would I know it was the right one?  Presumably, there were two Thomas Jones's in that part of east London at the same time.

I might see if I can find the birth cert for the eldest brother Henry Jones who had Martha as his servant in 1861 and was lodging Ruth Jones (Grim) in 1881.

Interestingly, Ruth (George and Martha's daughter born 1868 before they were married)disappears after 1881.  I assume she married or died, but I can't find evidence that won't involve me ordering loads of certificates...

I also don't have access to the 1851 census because my subscription is for Find My Past and not for Ancestry, so I don't know what was happening then, or whether it would give me more clues.

In the 1861 census. Civil parish bethnal Green, 1b Gasgoyne Place lived:

John JONES 69, Box Maker Born London City
Ellener JONES (her name was actually Ann Eleanor) 50, born London City
George JONES 21, Horse Hair Dresser (!), born Shoreditch
and various siblings

Also in the 1861 census. Civil parish Paddington, 19 Harrow Road lived:

Henry JONES 32, Boot Maker born MIDDX
his wife and children and..
Martha GRIM, 16 house servant, born Hackney (which is the woman George Jones married).

Now, Henry wasn't a bootmaker, he was a shipping agent and in the 1871 census returns he is shown as a Commission Agent (living in Allhallows Barking) with his wife and children, although his wife's name is the same as when he was a boot maker, so maybe he didn't like it and switched to something else.

In 1881 Henry's living in Hackney and is a Shipping Agent
In 1891 Henry's living in Hackney still and is an OIl Merchant

I did get a squint at the 1901 census on a freebie from Ancestry and he and his wife were living in Brixton retired Shipping Agent.

Just realised, I can't order a BC for Henry because he was born in 1828.

Which certificates do you think would be the most useful for me to try to find?

[Arranroots]

It would be interesting to have the marriage details of Henry JONES and Maria B (nee BANKS) to see whether he is indeed a brother and what occupation and name he gives for his father!

Having a look at the info you have provided to see what to make of it - if you do have the references for the censuses it would speed things up a lot (hint hint!)

kind regards, Arranroots 

[Tsu]

1841 census ref HO107 Piece 709 Book/Folio 2/11 Page 14
1861 census ref RG109 Piece 251 Folio 14 Page 38
1861 census ref RG09 Piece 3 Folio 80 Page 10
1861 census ref RG09 Piece 254 Folio 21 Page 45
1871 census ref RG10 Piece 455 Folio 59 Page 8
1881 census ref RG11 Piece 482 Folio 131 Page 33
1891 census ref RG12 Piece 179 Folio 15 Page 24

I'll order a copy of Henry and Maria's marriage cert today and let you know what I find out..

Thanks for this. 

[Arranroots]

Hmm George is just a labourer in 1891 - assuming he is the one in Whitechapel?  Henry is an oil (paint) merchant - not the Dallas type, just in case anyone is wondering!!

Still looking ...

 

[Tsu]

I'd have been very surprised if he was JR Jones...LOL

I know they were fairly poor (well my bit of the family were) but Henry must have been a little bit better off to keep a servant?  certainly, Gascoyne Place in Shoreditch was dirt poor.  Almost the Jago.

Or have I been watching too many episodes of Upstairs Downstairs?

[Arranroots]

LOL Upstairs, Downstairs! 

Bear in mind that if Henry had his niece staying and she was a servant it doesn't necessarily follow that she worked for him.  That said, i think he has another servant on one of the censuses?  Really we should write them all out - I am getting confused!

I think I see Martha and Thomas in 1901, with Elizabeth who was missing from the family in 1891, possibly she was a servant elsewhere.

RG13 Piece303 Folio 133 Page16

So George snr had died by then? Does this correspond with the info on George junior's marriage cert?

kind regards, Arranroots