Deperately seeking Hugh Herbert Greene

[Siouxzie]

I have found an IGI for a Hugh Green Jul 1846 chrs 19 Jul 1846 Saint Paul Deptford.  This may or may not be the Hugh Herbert I am looking for.  Can anyone find him on a census ?
He is deceased by 1891, has a child in 1883 and another in 1886.  I don't know his birthplace, but I am hoping this Greenwich/Deptford one is right.  He is a prison warder in 1886 when his daughter is born and she lists him as a soldier(deceased)  in 1907 when she marries.

Siouxzie

[casalguidi]

Hi Siouxzie

I can't immediately see him.

You're being a bit scant with the info on your family here .................

When/where was the daughter born in 1886?

Could you please post details of the family from 1881/1891/1901 

Casalguidi

[Siouxzie]

Sorry Casalguidi,

I have posted all over Rootschat about this individual, been a bit brief here I know.  The only info I have on Hugh Herbert Greene is in relation to his daughter my great grandma, Lily Winifred Greene.

 He appears on her birth certificate 25th February, 1886  Registration District Pancras, subdistrict Kentish Town, address given 2 Leighton Road, Pancras.  Her Mother is Sarah Ann formerly Robbins.  Hugh Herbert 's occupation is given as "prison warder".

He appears again on her marriage certificate 25th December 1907, but he is noted as deceased with the occupation "Soldier".  Lily married in Greenwich .

On the 1891 census, Sarah Ann is a widow aged 31, birthplace Northampton living with 5 year old Lily, in Greenwich 13 Trinity Grove..

In 1901 Sarah Ann  is still living at 13 Trinity Grove, but with son Herbert age 18 both of them are "carriage cleaner's"  Lily isn't with them, but I found her in service elsewhere in London.  Both Sarah Ann and son Herbert are listed as having been born Aynho, Northamptonshire.

I have looked for Hugh Herbert in Northamptonshire to no avail.  I cannot find his marriage to Sarah Ann Robbins, I cannot find the birth GRO for Herbert the son.

Can't find him in 1881,  since the son wasn't born until 1883 I thought  it was fairly safe to assume that they weren't marrried in 1881, so I looked for Sarah Ann Robbins seperately and I found her in service in Oxford, she was a cook.  So they married after 1881 and possibly before 1883.  Hugh Herbert Greene is dead by 1891.

Having found a GRO and IGI for a Hugh Green in 1846 in the Greenwich area, I am hoping this is him and that some kind soul can find him 1851, or 61 or 71.  The IGI gives his parents as Joseph Green and Ann, no third e.

I am begining to think Sarah Ann made him up!

Siouxzie

[Siouxzie]

Yes he did exist and wasn't a figment of wife and daughters imagination!  I now have his death certificate.

Hugh Herbert Green (not 3rd e on his death cert) died 15 May 1887 address at time of death was 2 College Place East Maidenstone Hill Greenwich.  His age is given as 43 which puts his birth date c 1844.  His occupation at time of death  "pensioner from the army a private in foot regiment"  Cause of death was Heart and Aortic disease of long standing.  There was a Post Mortem and an Inquest.  Unfortunately then the informant was not a family member like I had hoped but the coroner (B Arundel Carttar - I think, coroner for Kent)  The inquest was held on the 18th may 1887.

So two questions please if anyone can help me?

1.  Is there anyway I can find out about the inquest online ?  Being as I live in Staffordshire.

2. Can anyone find H H in 1851 or 61, or 71 or 81.  When he would be 7, 17, 27, 37.  I have found no trace of him.  He is single in 1881 because I have found his future wife on that census and she is not married to him, but living in Oxfordshire and working as a cook. He is the father to Herbert in 1883 (acording to 1901 census Herbert was born in Aynho, Northamptonshire, which is where his mother is from.  He is father to Lily Winifred in 1886, on her birth certificate, they are living in kentish Town, Pancras and he is a prison warder.  A year later he is dead and an army pensioner.  On Lily's wedding cert, his occupation was listed as soldier.

Maybe he is a soldier in 1881, which barrracks, might he be at ? He is in the foot regiment!

Oh Hugh where are you?

[Siouxzie]

Hi,
In order not to annoy anyone, must tell you, I have posted on this gent before.  Still havn't got anywhere so having another go.

Have spent the morning trawling through the BETA Births index on Ancestry.  Looked for Green and Greene  - Hugh years 1843 through 1846.  As I have his birth date at approx 1844.

Only two Hugh Green born in this timescale. The one that is most likely is Hugh Green born Sep 1846 Greenwich Vol 5 page 203. 

So could anyone with access to kent 1851, 61, 71 look for him for me.

I have yet to find old Hugh Herbert anywhere other than on his daughter's birth and marriage cert and on his own death certificate.

In 1881 I believe he was single, possibly a soldier or a prison warder.  By 1886 and his daughter's birth he is a prison warder living Kentish Town.  He dies in May 1887 in Maidenstone Hill Greenwich.  The death certificate says he received a pension from the Army and that he was a private in the foot regiment and that age at death was 43.

He must exist on a census somewhere.  His wife Sarah Ann nee Robbins is on the 1901, a widow living with a son Herbert born in 1883, but she was single in 1881 which puts their marriage in the years 1881 - 1883.

This man is the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Siouxzie

[millerina]

Hi Siouxzie,

I agree with you that your Hugh Green is a proverbial needle in a haystack, I have hunted and hunted for him in the 51,61 and 71 census' and not found a sign of him. 

The closest I have been able to come up with is in the 1861 census is for a Hugh Greham born c1842 in Ireland and listed as a Private in the First Battalion 16th Infantry Regiment, Camp Shorncliffe in Cheriton, Folkestone. (RG9/552 folio103 page16). I can't find this man in the 1851 or 1861 census though.

There is a death for a Hugh Green in Sept quarter of 1846 in Greenwich, I wonder if it is the same one whose birth you have found?? 

millerina

[Siouxzie]

Hi Millerina,
Thanks for looking.  If I didn't have the man's death certificate, I would think his daughter made him up.

I don't like your death in 1846, but it has probably saved me from following a false trail. looks like the 1846 birth I had is not my man.  I had found an IGI for Hugh Green July 1846 Deptford and was about to take flight following parents Joseph and Ann to Cumberland.  Now I know a Hugh Green died in Greenwich  1846 I'll be a little more cautious.

I can't believe I'll ever pin him down on a census.  Thanks for trying...he certainly is!

Siouxzie

[casalguidi]

Hi Siouxzie

I, too, hunted for him before and again recently and can't really see any other way round this than to search the army records at the National Archives, Kew, London if you feel certain that he was in the army at some stage (would certainly explain his absence from the census).  Unfortunately, they don't have the discharge records for this period indexed online as yet but their online catalogue and documents are growing all the time.

Have you looked for his burial (to see if there was anybody else in the plot and occupation etc.) and possibly even an obituary and/or gravestone if you think it likely

Best wishes

Casalguidi

[Siouxzie]

Thanks for looking Casalguidi,
Online sources have proven no good to me and it looks like if I am ever to make any progress with him, I'll have to get out from behind my computer and go looking.

Maybe one day I'll achieve a day at Kew.  I'd need to get to Greenwich records office for the obitury/burial info I guess.

Thanks for keeping him in mind

Siouxzie