Vira Smith

[Danuella]

Wow what can i say apart from thankyou all so much,I did find thomas and thomas in ashbourne 1901 and suspect that is possibly him,and also i thought there may be a link with vira and henry holland too but cant find it!!
I did find the marriage record for viras daughter and her cousin henry and also his birth record and yup mmn is smith,but which one,lol!!
I have been trying so hard to find this lot and just havent got anywhere(apart from banging my head against the wall,lol)
Just found out apparntly Vira was turfed out of her home approx age 9 and sent on the road?she was taken in by her sister sophie or a name similar but dont know how true that is?I ahve to say you lot are pretty skilled at all this gypsy lark you've found out more then i've been able to
Also just found Viras death after 6 months of searching,sheslisted as Venus Smith and the age is out by a couple of years do you think this is likely?
Warmest wishes

[deb usa]

Hi

back again ...had to go out fot a bit ....

So the 1901 below could be vira's family, especially if she was b c 1888 and was 'tossed' out. Wish we could find her in 1891. Will have a look for a Sophia Smith.

another thought . maybe Vira left the family when her dad married Annie Janie ... 

1901
Hartington, Ashbourne Derby
TENTS
Amos SMITH head mar 29 travelling cutlery grinder b Leics, morning??
Annie Jane wive 19 b newcastle , Tyne
Amos son 9 b Staffs, Barleston
Micheal son 1 b Derby Mercaston

hey good job ..Opsrey  I also had thoughts of Slyvester = Amos especially with wife Alice ...although Alice has different POB in the census ... But with travellers that sometimes happens, 

deb

[Danuella]

Thats a really good possibility as no one knows why vira was tossed out,her grandaughter says her sisters name was something along the lines of sophie/sophia/zafara?
unfortunatly she cant remember exactly!!
I am so stumped as to why she just doesnt seem to be on the 2 censues she should be on!!

[deb usa]

Hi Danuella

i come from a very large Gypsy Family ...the Penfolds who married into the Holland family. Sometimes we just have to face the fact that they will not be found in all the censuses ...mine are missing in quite a few. they travelled a lot and so it was very easy for  the enumerators to miss them on census night.

This is another thought.
Amos who is 9 with amos snr and Annie Jane in the 1901 most probably is the child of Amos' first wife and a sibling of Vira . I wonder if we could find Amos' birth reg ... which would reveal his mothers maiden name . He was b c 1892, staffs.

There is this one;
Amos Smith June q 1891, Walsall  Staffordshire

deb

[Danuella]

Thanks Deb definatlt sounds like a possibility to me and now i come to think about it viras grandaugter thinks she came from  where the potteries are around staffs!!she  also thinks vira may have had brothers but shes not sure!!
I have to say the birth f amos 1892 does seem to fit in quite well doesnt it
Hugs

[Lino]

probably completely wrong but could vira be abicavena d/o amos & hannah smith? i cannot find abicavena anywhere other than her baptism. her brother, napthali, was my gggrandfather; his son, napthali had a daughter, laura, with amadine booth (my ggrandparents). if you think this is possible, please contact me to swap info.  best wishes, lino.

ps. napthali senior married boyrementa holland. aka wymenty, ryerdunty et al

[Cheryl16]

Births Sep 1895
 
Smith  Vira     W. Derby  8b 436

I think this could be your birth. A few years out but we all know that a lot of our gypsy rellies were a bit vague about ages!

Viramenta/ Viraminta as a name crops up a few times in the Smiths and Hollands. In fact, Lino,  certain researchers suggest that Byrawenly was in fact Viramenta Holland.

[Cheryl16]

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c6m/

I have just found this news story re Vira and Thomas Smith in the Staffordshire Sentinel.15th May 1915.

You have to drag it around a bit and the headline is Van dwellers Quarrel. It mentions an assault on Vira's brother Nathan by Vira. 

Cheryl

[Lino]

hi cheryl, thanks for your reply. vira cannot be my gggrandma then because i have several pieces of evidence to show that she was born 1825 in waltham on the wolds and birth cerificates of several of her children. never mind though; it was just a thought especially when you are clutching at straws. i can only conclude that amos/hannah smith's daughter, abicavena, died before the 1841 census. ( she was born13/5/1833). i would be interested in hearing from you if ever you should come across her name in your research.
best wishes, lino