Parish records

[pyghtle]

I am trying to find details of the birth of Lily Clara Daniel born Middlesex London in 1865.(Could be Marylebone)  (sometimes spelt Lillie). Father Robert Daniel. I have exhausted the usual channels and just wondered if the birth could have been registered in the local parish.

I believe that she was illegitimate, so is there a possibility that the birth would not be registered anywhere.

Thanks

Brenda
                                         

[wozzle]

cannot find her sister violets birth either
if it is the same one
in 1871 are they in suffolk and 1881 in medlock lancashire

[Barbara F]

Hello Brenda

If she is illegitimate then she could well be registered (and baptised) under her mother's maiden name.

What else do you know about her?

Barbara

[pyghtle]

Hi Barbara

Her father was Robert Daniel and his wife was Mary Ann Daniel (nee Rinder) but I believe Mary died in 1861 (waiting for confirmation of this) and I believe that Lily and Violet were illegitimate, and were born to Priscilla Albon.

I have exhausted every avenue looking for Violet, so thought I would try to find out about LILY.
Lily was born in 1865, the 1891 census says that she was born in Maryleborne London, the 1901 says Middlesex London.She died in 1910. I am trying to establish parentage of both Violet and Lily.

Wozzle..I have the details of the 1871 and 1881 census, and as Priscilla was born in Haverhill Suffolk, this led me to believe that she was the mother, they appear as Daniel in all the census, but Priscilla and Robert went on to have 4 more daughters and they were called Albon,which made me wonder whether Mary Ann was their mother...she died and Priscilla brought the girls up.

There does not seem to be a record of their births anywhere, yet I can find records of births of the other daughters.

My last resort was Parish registers!

Brenda

[Barbara F]

Well Brenda this is quite a puzzle.

I have tried numerous types of search to find Lilly's birth reg but am completely stumped.

I see that Robert and Mary Ann married in 1849 and had no children at the time of the 1861 census.  Also that Priscilla was in London in 1861 and unmarried. 

But why did Robert and Priscilla wait until 1890 to marry ? (if that is the correct marriage). Could Mary Ann have been alive until then - perhaps the marriage broke down or she was ill and in an institution?

It does look like Lilly and Violet are the children of Robert and Priscilla but I understand that you need proof.  If no-one can look at the PRs for you, could you order a film from the LDS?

Barbara

[pyghtle]

Thank you Barbara...the puzzling thing is, that although no record of the births of Violet and lily can be found, the births of the other 4 daughters are recorded.

I know that Robert and MAry Ann had one daughter together Elizabeth Lloyd DAniel...my great Grandmother, she was born in Paddington in 1851, then in 1861 she is living in Leeds with her Aunt Mary..Roberts sister and she stayed in Leeds from then onwards, her Aunt brought her up.She did eventually marry, went to live in Lincolnshire, her husband left her with 6 children and she went back to Leeds.

I assumed that Elizabeth either returned to Leeds because her mother died or because her father was having an 'affair'  I need to find out when Mary Ann died, I have already sent for one death certificate and it was the wrong one!

Also Violet was given the same middle name 'Lloyd' as Elizabeth  (that was Roberts mothers maiden name), as though Elizabeth never existed.

Robert was declared bankrupt in  1863, which could also have affected his marriage.

Maybe the births were never registered.

Do not know where to look next!!!

Thanks for your interest.

Brenda

[meles]

Some of mine lived in one place but baptised their children in their old family village church. Took me years to suss that out. 

meles

[Barbara F]

I noticed that Elizabeth was at school in 1861 and that Violet and Lily were also at school (a different one) in 1871. I wonder where the money came from to pay for this?  Were the younger children sent away to school too?
The gap between the births of the children does suggest Violet and Lilly to be Priscilla's.
I have looked for Mary Ann in the 1871 and 1881 censuses but nothing obvious is coming up, even just using her initials in case she is a patient somewhere.  I suppose she could have gone off with someone else and changed her name 
Locating a death certificate for Mary Ann would be very helpful but otherwise a search in the PRs for a baptism seems the best way of pursuing this starting with Marylebone.
Barbara

[pyghtle]

If you look at the 1861 census for Elizabeth, you will notice that the first teacher on the census and possibly the head was Ann Rinder, that was Mary Anns sister, so I presume that she went to that school as a concession, she is also much younger than the other pupils.Also Elizabeths Aunt was a woman of means I think, but I do not know how the school in Bury St Edmunda was paid for I have not seen the census for that.



Mary Ann came from a large family in Leeds, I did wonder at one timw whether Mary Ann took Elizabeth back to Leeds because Robert was having an affair, but there is no mention of Mary Ann Daniel in any census after 1861.

Thanks again

Brenda