town prison Birmingham

[tinav40]

Hi sorry I didn't get back to you sooner it's my daughters 19th birthday and we were doing the cake and candles thing.
The court case was ...the 11th day of April 1837 at 10 O'Clock in the forenoon.
At the court house Birmingham in the county of Warwick.
He was married in 1843 so was ''out'' by then.
I'm now starting to think that there were 2 different people with the same name or possibly he went to prison twice

[TonyR]

Hi Tina, what's your chap's name & have you got link to Gazette page?  Let's see if I can spot anything from them.  Regards, TonyR.

[tinav40]

Hi Tony
www.london-gazette.co.uk issue number 19477 just put Samuel Tongue in the search box.
The Samuel in the gazette is definitely mine. He is a black ornament maker and a huckster. I do have a discrepancy though. I spent some time last night going over my records to see how I made this error. The 1841 Samuel is a mill wright.
However he is the only one that fits. He is the same age and from the same area. There is another Samuel but in 1841 he is 14 and his mother is Rebbecca. My Samuels mother is Mary.
What started out as a simple desire to find out about the prison has turned into a quest/another one/ to find out if it's the same person.
Tina

[TonyR]

Hi Tina, soz to cause you problems.  If it were me, for the moment  I would have doubt that 1841 prisoner Samuel a 'Millwright' & your Samuel a 'black ornament maker' & 'huckster' are same man.

Main reasons for this are; your Samuel is recorded in Gazette as black ornament maker & huckster and continues with the trade of black ornament maker in 1851 & later, I think this is quite a different occupation to being a millwright.

There is nothing in Gazette to say he was actually imprisoned & even if he was there is no knowledge of for how long, perhaps he only 'got' a short sentence and was out before 1841.  I agree that this means he is missing from 1841, but so are lots of others.

Your Samuel was in Gazette for debt but the 1841 Samuel was not in debtors prison.

Have you got Samuel's father's name & where did you get his mother as Mary?

Perhaps others with census access can look for Samuel in 1841 with 'fresh eyes' & maybe find him at home with mom & dad.  Tina, I know it's a headache but maybe it's best to prove/disprove before moving on.  Sorry again.  Regards, TonyR.

[tinav40]

Don't be sorry I hate making mistakes.
Samuels daughter was my grandfathers mother, Mary Ann born in 1865. His parents were Samuel 1792 and Mary Evans. These are all correct, parish records, IGI ETC..
I do agree that it probably isn't him even though it is quite a coincidence.
I was in the middle of something else but I'm stuck on that one. So back to grandads family for a while to do some digging.
Cheers 
Tina

[wcadby]

Tina,

I too am related to Samuel Tongue.

Elizabeth Tongue was my great great grandmother, and her father is Samuel Tongue, a Millwright born circa 1820. I obtained the name and occupation from Elizabeth's birth cert.

Utilising the names on her birth cert, i obtained the marriage cert for Samuel, which states him as a millwright. However, his father, also Samuel Tongue, is stated as.......a black ornament maker.

There is no way that the Samuel that is a black ornament maker on all the census reports can be the father of Samuel (Millwright) due to the ages. Therefore, the Samuel on all the censuses must be the Samuel (Millwright), regardless of the occupation he has stated.

[tinav40]

Hi
Nice to find a distant rellie on RC.
This is an old post and since then I have done a lot more digging.
I now have my great grandparents marriage certificate (Samuel Tongues daughter) On the certificate Samuel is down as a glass maker. So it's all a bit confusing really.
Tina

[wcadby]

really? weird. i wish they would have put down things we could easily trace!!!

anyway, did you find anything further on Samuel and his prison sentence?

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