Harry Smith's Father ???

[Stefan Woolf]

One further mystery.

Your Thomas SMITH dies somewhere around 1851.

I can't find a burial at....

Aston Clinton, St Michael & All Angels
Aston Clinton, St Leonard
Buckland, All Saints.

That would seem to me to leave only Drayton Beauchamp, (not the most obvious choice), unless he was buried away from the area.

Strange it's not at one of the 3 I have records for.

Stef.

[Stefan Woolf]

Hi Lissa,

Some more info for you.

You say you do not have maiden name of Sarah who married Thomas SMITH.

It would appear to be WESTBURY, as her father is stated as Richard WESTBURY when she remarries ti Elijah THORNE.

Please let me know if there are any further details of that marriage that you do not have, and would like.

Stef.

[murphy60]

Hi Stefan,  WOW  I'm thrilled to have new leads on the Smiths!!!  Thank you and I don't mind the questions at all!   I will have another look at my notes later  ---   I only looked very quickly last nite in order to give you the basics and it has been awhile since I explored this line in detail.  I truly wasn't expecting more follow-up!

I may have filled in some details from various sources into my recapped notes as (at the time)  I did not have direct, full access to the English Census images. 

I think "my" Sarah is the one from Fencott  and finding her maiden name is new information for me.

I'm still at work  ---   was grabbing a quick peek --   so will work on this later.

Many thanks for spurring renewed hope in developing this line.   I do have an English Smith"cousin" who is directly descended through one of Rhoda's brothers but have not followed up with her on detailed information.

Rhoda had  2 brothers who followed her to the U.S.  circa early 1870  --   I think it was John and Peter and one had wife Mary Ann and there was a son Job as well.   

When I was researching this several years ago,  I was very confused by the Smith's Thorne's,  Cox's and Sharpe's as they were in close proximity.  I couldn't really figure it all out until I found them in the U.S.

Will get back with you later re;  the clarifying information you requested..

Regards,
lissa

[Stefan Woolf]

OK, I look forward to any further info you have.

I'm interested in ALL the SMITHs in Drayton Beauchamp, Buckland, Buckland Common, St Leonard & Aston Clinton.

So far I think maybe 75% of those in the 1841 - 1901 period are amazingly all from the same line, but I'm interested in following the remaining 25%, to see if there is a connection I've yet to find.

I am intrigued by your mention of COX, as my 2 * great grandparents were Charles SMITH and Ann COX.  The COXs have (surprisingly) proved harder to unravel than the SMITHs. To complete the picture, my other main name from those hamlets and villages is PENN.

These are very inter-bred families, I can tell you!

Stef.

[murphy60]

Hello Stef.  Went back and rechecked my notes  ---   my quicky reply last nite was not far off the mark.......

Yes, I concur Sarah is a widow in 1851, alone w/ the children.  By the age of the youngest, William age 4, Thomas died between 1847-1851.

I found 3 deaths in Aylesbury which could be this Thomas Smith:  Sep Qtr 1847  Mar Qtr 1849 and Sep Qtr 1849 
However it is discouraging you have not found a PR for his death so maybe neither of the above are him!!

I can't find them in 1841  ---   BUT  someone found them for me in 1841  ---   several groups of Smiths in Buckland,  the street name of "Dancers End"  was not cited....

My group:   Thomas 31  (Pauper)  Sarah 31  w/ John 6  Rodia 3  James 1

As a reference, in 1841, next door are   (I have not made a connection to "my" Thomas)
Job Smith 25 Mary 28 Jane 4 Frederick 2
Thomas Smith 31 Mary 31 Ann 13 William 11 Joseph 7 Henry 3

In 1861,
Sarah Thorne 50  (1811) b. Aston Clinton  Wife of Elizah Thorne  55  with    Job Smith 18    William Smith 13 
Rhoda Smith is on her own w/ Harry Smith age 2

Marriage Sarah Smith to Elizah Thorne Dec Qtr 1853 Aylesbury

I wasn't able to access images tonight --   some glitch apparently --   could only see the index and transcribed information so I couldn't reconfirm the street addresses nor see  neighbors on adjacent pages.  As soon as the glitch is fixed,  will try to find Thomas in 1841 to see if there is a birthplace for him ---   but I'm sure you would already know this if it was there ??

I doubt if I provided anything new for you as you have well researched this area and surname.  But I very much appreciate the new information on Sarah's maiden "Westbury". 

I will take a shot @ Thomas' DC in my next order from GRO --  maybe will get lucky &  something interesting there ??   and for Sarah's MC to Elizah Thorne as well.   

Let me know if I can help further or if you have any other thoughts on all this.

 
lissa

[Stefan Woolf]

Hi Lissa,

I'm in late tonight, so this may be a bit of a rushed reply.

I think one of those Thomas SMITH deaths is likely to be your man. I am confused, however, that I can't turn up a burial.

I don't know how well you know the area, but it has what were called "strip parishes", because they were very long and narrow. A parish map looks almost like a piece of streaky bacon, with Aston Clinton (which includes St Leonards), Buckland, (which includes Buckland Common) and Drayton Beauchamp parishes all stretched out side by side.

This make it very hard to know where an event may be recorded, as you maybe have to travel 5 or 7 miles to get from one end of a particular parish to another, but maybe no more than a mile in the other direction to cross all 3.

Dancers End, (where your SMITHs are in 1841) and nearby Ebbs Pitt, (where mine are), are tiny Hamlets - the latter barely exists today. I'm not even sure which parish they were in, back then.
(They are not street names, rather small groups of houses, surrounded otherwise by countryside).

Within those three parishes there are 4 churches, (Aston Clinton has it's main one, but also one at St Leonard). In my experience a baptism, marriage or burial can crop up at any, even if the people were not in that particular parish at the time. (A complication is that St Leonard was debarred from performing marriages from 1754 to about 1860 as a result of Hardwicke's marriage act).

I have the wherewithal to check registers for all but Drayton Beauchamp, and didn't find a Thomas Smith burial. That may mean it was at Drayton Beauchamp - it's hard to imagine why he might have been buried elsewhere, particularly as his wife stayed put in the area.

If you don't want to spend out on Sarah's second marriage certificate, I can let you have the full transcript from the Aston Clinton parish registers, if that helps. Just let me know.

Oh, and by the way, the 1841 census does not give place of birth - only whether born in the county, or outside it. Thomas SMITH is from outside the county, like his wife, but that's all we can know from the census. (People who can't stay alive until 1851 are most annoying!).

I have to say, I think it unlikely we will easily establish a connection between my SMITHs and yours.

If your Thomas was born out of county, and his wife was Oxfordshire born, there has to be a good chance that so was he, I'd have thought.

But you never know, in this game.....

Stef.

[murphy60]

Hi Stef.   I very much appreciate your very well informed and researched local expertise.  I have worked from the 1858 map of Buck to establish geographical reference points so the explanation of the parish system is excellent and very helpful.  That part is always a bit confusing from the American side.  Excellent analogy regarding the "bacon strip parishes" --  makes that very clear now. 

Something is sticking about the Drayton Beauchamp reference ---  I may have something from there which I set aside previously.   

I agree that it is unlikely he was buried outside the area ---  they were very rooted there for many years and were poor people  --   unless he was killed or died while away from home   Or could there be a reason the death was not recorded because of lack of money or some issue with the parish??

Will also renew the search for Thomas and Sarah focusing on Oxfordshire --  maybe some remnant of their families left there.  WESTBURY being the easier name to search than SMITH  (if "easier" applies ??)   Will be tough to do on-line before civil registration and the census.

Sarah's 2nd marriage transcript to ELizah THORNE would be very helpful in order to document that event.   Thank you!!

Have you found in your other research, SMITH (or any other surname ) all knotted together like this but not related?   Seems so strange that house after house and groups on adjacent streets within these tiny hamlets and they are not related  or at least not from the seminal family/families  ??  I would think the SMITH surname has something to do with complicating this based on how the name came to be.    Over time the intermarriages between family groups and the cousins marrying cousins also becomes a factor.  Not to mention every family using the same 10 names over and over! 

LOL! on your comment regarding not having the courtesy to stay alive until the next census!!  In American research, when they miss (or are lost in) the English census,  arrive after the U.S. census and then marry, have children and very inconveniently die before the next census ---   harumpf   

Thanks again --  really appreciate your sharing your considerable knowledge.

lissa

[Stefan Woolf]

Lissa - Here is the transcript of that second marriage.

St Michael & All Angels, Aston Clinton

Marriage 17th Oct 1853
Elijah THORN, aged fa, Widower of Aston Clinton, Labourer,  son of Joseph THORN, Labourer.
Sarah SMITH, aged fa, Widow of Aston Clinton, Platter, daughter of Richard WESTBURY, Labourer
by Banns
Witnesses John PARRADINE, Mary BALDWIN

All made marks, rather than signing.

"Platter" means "Straw Plaiter" and is often spelt this way in parish registers.

Please note this is from a generally reliable family history society transcript - I can't vouch that it matches original registers.

I confirm there is definitely no burial transcribed in the registers for this church that could be Thomas SMITH.  There are no SMITHs he could be muddled with, nor ant Thomas that look like they could be an error.

I've also checked St Leonard & Buckland again, and (just in case) nearby Halton.

I suppose if he was a pauper, and died in an institution in Aylesbury, he might have been buried there, to avoid the expense of bringing him home.  My gut feel is you might find his burial at Drayton Beauchamp, but my understanding is that the registers for the relevant date are still in use at the church, so can't even be viewed at the county records office, let alone on film.

I don't know what to make of the Aston Clinton (and surrounding villages) SMITHs. I put off trying to research them for a while, because I thought the name would be hard. In practice it seemed quite easy to attribute up to 75% of the SMITHs in that area in the 19th Century to a common pair of ancestors, which genuinely surprised me.

I remained aware of quite a few SMITHs that were not obviously related, and yours seem to be some of them. At least one other SMITH family has a soldiering background, and, again, doesn't obviously link to mine.

You mentioned COX at one point. Were they from here, please ? I have these in my ancestry. They changed the name from COCK to COX about the time they were marrying in to my SMITHs. I guess I can see why!

Stef.

[murphy60]

Hi Stef.   Many thanks for the Marriage Record  ---   with that now have confirmation of Sarah's maiden name and father which is totally new information!  YEAH!!  The Parradine name for the witness is familiar.   But I  may be recalling this from other parish records --  maybe an employee of the parish?  I also think the name relates to a wealthy farmer/land owner in the area??

I (finally) found Thomas and Sarah SMITH this morning in the 1841 Census.  They are not indexed.  I worked from  the other nearby Smith references given to me several years ago through the census pages to find them.  Everything is the same as previously reported.    I guess the eldest son Charles (age 10 or 11) was "loaned out" at the time otherwise all the siblings born at that time accounted for so hoping it truly is my group.   

Seems Dancers End still exists --  was able to find several references by googling  --  in the modern villiage of Halton, Dancers End and St. Leonard's Road were mentioned together in a building permit request.   I wasn't able to find any pictures of the area yet.

I originate from a long line of plaiters/platters apparently!!!   All the women in my Steeple/Middle Claydon branch are lace makers.  Have found historic photos's of women outside their cottages ---  who could be my great great grandmother/aunts  --   working away!   I did not get the gene for any of these talents!

I'm checking back on the COCK/COX  (sure glad they changed that!!)  but think there is a marriage or two through a different line and  not the Smiths.  Will confirm that with you.

I congratulate you on your success with the SMITH line  --  a remarkable achievement to have linked so many!!
I'm not so hopeful about my lot but perhaps your help the WESTBURY connection will help open the door a little wider.

No Military connections for the Smiths that I know of.   There are a couple of military connections through my other Bucks line but nothing of distinctive interest.

When I order the DCs  for the possible Thomas Smith's in Aylesbury, I'll let you know what they show in case they are helpful to you as well.    Unfortunate luck on the  Drayton Beauchamps records ---   wonder what secrets hidden there to prohibit them from becoming public domain 158 years later 

Stef.  you have been very encouraging and most helpful.

Thanks again!

lissa