am i right or horribly wrong. Please let me tap yr brains.

[243rose]

Hi.
 
i need someone to check my work to see if i've got it right or horribly wrong. The reason i have a nagging doubt is her birth wasn't registered and her name changes from Sarah Mary in early life to Mary Sarah on all other certificates and census returns.
 
The person in question is Mary Sarah ROSE.
1/ I first found her on my G Grandads birth certificate Charles George ROSE born 1875 in Chelsea as Mary Sarah ROSE formerly BANKS, his father Samuel ROSE.
 
2/ Then i got the marriage cert of Samuel ROSE and Mary Sarah BANKS in Brompton, Kensington in March 1864.
she is 21 years old, a spinster, her father is William BANKS who is deceased and a gentleman's servant.
Witnesses ; Elizabeth Ann BANKS and William James BANKS.
 
3/ i then found them in the census returns.
1871 census-Class: RG10; Piece: 49; Folio: 45; Page: 12;
She is Mary S ROSE, age 28 born in Brompton.
 
1881 census - Class: RG11; Piece: 85; Folio: 72; Page: 10
She is Mary ROSE age 38, born in Kensington.
 
1891 census - Class: RG12; Piece: 61; Folio 124; Page 42;
She is Mary S STODDARD (remarriage), age 48, born in Brompton.
She was remarried in 1884 to Charles STODDARD after the death of Samuel ROSE.
On the marriage certificate she is 41 years old ,a widow, her father William BANKS who is deceased and described as a Carpenter.
Witnesses were henry WRIGHT and Henry BARNES.
 
1901 Census - Class: RG13; Piece: 71; Folio: 159; Page: 30
She is Mary Sarah ROSE, age 58, born in Kensington. Charles STODDARD used to knock her around, i'm not sure whether he died or they were divorced........... she didn't keep his name.
 
..........................................................................................................................................................................
 
i found Samuel ROSE'S death certificate.
he died in june 1881.
The informant was William James BANKS of 635 Kings Rd, Fulham.
i found him in the census.........Class: RG11; Piece: 73; Folio: 87; Page: 13
William James BANKS age 40, born in Kensington.
 
These are the names i had -  Mary Sarah BANKS (subject of enquiry)
her father William BANKS
Elizabeth Ann BANKS and William James BANKS witnesses to her 1st marriage.
And William James BANKS the informant on the death certificate of Samuel ROSE.
 
I searched the whole of Brompton and Kensington old style before computers and settled on this family.
 
1851 census - Class: HO107; Piece: 1469; Folio: 24; Page: 41
3 Chapel St, Brompton
William BANKS            aged 39       servant  born in pevensey, sussex.
Sarah BANKS               aged 37                    born in waddon, surrey.
William James BANKS aged 10                    born in Kensington
Sarah Mary BANKS      aged  8                    born in kensington
Elizabeth Ann BANKS   aged 5                     born in kensington
Benjamin a BANKS       aged 7 mnths          born in Kensington
 
So i had the correct fathers name and occupation.
William James BANKS the informant on the death cert with the correct age and dob.
also  had a match on a witness name Elizabeth Ann BANKS and i had a Mary Sarah BANKS the right age and place of birth but the forenames round the other way.................................................Sarah Mary instead. I have always assumed but with a nagging doubt that she must have used Mary instead of Sarah as her mother was also a Sarah.
 
i have them in the 1861 census minus Sarah/Mary. i cannot find her with certainty, i think she was one of a few Female Servants
Class: RG9; Piece: 20; Folio: 136; Page: 44
3, chapel place, brompton
Sarah BANKS age 46
William BANKS age 20
Elizabeth BANKS age 15
Arthur BANKS age 10
John Banks age 8.
 
William the father has died .
 
William BANKS died at 3 chapel Place, Brompton on 6th Aug 1853.
The informant was wife Sarah BANKS.
Occupation Journeyman Carpenter.
 
I got one of the childrens birth certs - Benjamin Arthur BANKS, born in Brompton august 1850.
Mother sarah BANKS formerley COLLINS and Father William BANKS a Servant living at 3 Chapel Place, Brompton.
 
I got their marriage cert - 1839 in Paddington.
William BANKS a servant  both of full age.
Sarah COLLINS.

I also went back to the 1881 census where William James BANKS was living with a variety of people, relationships a bit unclear.
There was a Maud A BANKS aged 3 months.
Maud Agnes BANKS was the daughter to William James BANKS brother John Joseph BANKS and wife Agnes born in December 1880. On the marriage certificate of John and Agnes, john's father is shown as William BANKS a Cabinet Maker.

William must have shortly before he died changed occupations from a servant to a carpenter/cabinet maker.

Anyway thanks to anyone who has got to the end of this.
Can i pursue my BANKS line and COLIINS line or do i need to do back to the drawing board.

Thanks
Iain ROSE


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Necromancer]

looks good overall I'd say - not unusual to swap forenames around .... slight hesitancy over Wm Banks change of occupation - but maybe he had carpentry skills in the 1830s before marriage ?

Also the fact that Sarah M / Mary S shows both his occupations on her marriages seems to be supportive ....

 

[243rose]

Thanks.

i too think that is at least supportive.
perhaps the fact she always uses both forenames is also pertinent.
Just setting all the info i had down on paper/computer really helped me.
By the end of it i was kind of convinced more than ever.

Thanks for you opinion.

Iain

[Sandyq]

Hi Iain,

Have spent quite a while looking at your research, and I too think yo'ue on the right track.
Don't know whether you've investigated this line :-

William James Banks birth was registered in the Dec qtr of 1841 Bethnal Green 2  35
following  that line I can see there is a
Mary Sarah Banks birth registered March 1845 (also Bethnal Green) 2    8

I know that you've probably been looking for 1843 and Kensington, but they weren't always too good on ages and places.
I think it's got to be worth £7 to send for her birth certificate.
Let me know how you get on
Kind Regards
Sandra

[243rose]

sandra,

thanks for taking the time to look at my lengthy missive and reply. only 1 of 2.
i'm pleased you think what i've done makes sound sense and i think i will definately follow the BANKS and COLLINS lines.

THe two baptisms in bethnal green are interesting especially as they have the middle names as well and i think i will check them out.

the family in question are missing in the 1841 census in the brompton / kensington area i wonder if they are in bethnal green, at least if i find the bethnal gre William James and Mary Sarah i may be able to count them in/out. i believe that some of the kensindton area was missing from the 1841 census though.

Many thanks
iain.

[pinefamily]

I think you are definitely on the right track.
It was quite common practice for children with the same name as their parents to go by another name, even in later life.
An alternative was shortened, or pet, forms of the name.
Examples would be William, Will, Bill; Sarah, Sally; Margaret, Meg, Peg.