Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th regiment foot

[km1971]

Hi Bonnie

Welcome. When you have posted twice more you can PM me your email address. You cannot post email addresses on the forum due to the risk of spammers.

Boy and Drummer are separate ranks. Henry enlisted as a Boy (pay was 8d a day at the time) and promoted to under-age Drummer (probably on 9d) then Drummer proper (on 1s 1d). This was 1d more than a Private. Looking at his record it suggests that his DoB was 18th September 1848. In addition he received 1d a day extra for each Good Conduct ‘badge’. The badge was actually a stripe (chevron) worn above the right cuff (before c1881) and on the left cuff after that date. The problem with such a long service is that the regulations would have changed a number of times. Sometimes the pay of Corporals and above had GC pay incorporated into the basic. At other times it was separate.

When he enlisted it was probably for ten years after the age of 18. In order to be awarded a pension a man had to serve a second ten year term. Under-age service did not count. Once he had re-enlisted he received another 1d a day. Henry appears to have re-enlisted just before his first engagement was up.

In addition to his Long Service Good Conduct medal and his Canada General Service medal (with Fenian Raid clasp 1866) I can tell you that he received the MSM (Meritorious Service Medal) with £5 gratuity in January 1912. In peacetime this was a kind of super LSGC medal usually issued after discharge. My GF received his when he was in his 70s. I can also tell you that (as of 1995) his medals were in the collection of GS Moss, New York.

Ken

[BonnieDownUnder]

Hello Ken
Re Henry Burghart:  It was such a lovely surprise to open my emails this morning and find your reply.  Thank you so much for a speedy answer, it is very much appreciated and with so much wonderful information.

Sorry Ken, but I have a heap more questions ...

Not knowing 'Army speak', I am having problems understanding his military records - (the man with the 'red pen' must of been someone of importance!!) so thanks for clarifying 'Boy' and 'Boy Drummer' roles, etc..  What role would a 'boy' do in the Army?  I am thinking along the lines of a 'glorified servant' to the upper ranks, am I on the right track?

I too thought that Henry was born on 18 Sep 1848 however I have trolled the GRO Birth's registry through that year (also 1849) and nothing remotely comes up.  There are conflicting ages shown for him on census records (no surprise here) from 1851-1901 however the 1911 record (when the family was living at 9 Blandford St. Ferryhill) Henry was very precise in showing his age as 62 years and 2 months, which makes his birth date in Feb of 1849.  Actually it was from this record I was then able to find his wife's (my ggm) birth registration.  Her maiden name was Cook but her birth was registered as Cooke.  Also, he was spot on with the ages for his 3 children.

Also I am mystified about him being in the 6th brigade.  Was that part of the 1st and 2nd Batt. of 14th Foot or 25th?

Would I be correct in saying that Henry would have been included in the regiment's movements, ie Curragh, Kinsale and Buttevant after their move to York in 1873?  I wonder why Henry didn't go off to India;  this is rather interesting as I heard a family tale that he served there.  Odd?  Also, would his regiment have been based at Lowther Street in York prior to their move to the New Barracks in Fulford in 1880?

Thanks also info about being awarded the MSM;  it was timely when he received this as he passed away on 06 Aug of that year, and I am amazed that you found that a GS Moss in New York had his medals back  at least, in 1995 - how the heck could one track down where they might be now?

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions, I really do appreciate all your help.
Thanks again and regards Bonnie
Have attached a photo of Henry ca 1894

[BonnieDownUnder]

Hello Jim,  I have just received an email from an expert who collects/sells military medals.  He told me that George Moss died in the 1990's, many of his medals were sold by a Pennsylvania medal dealer called John Laidacker who sadly has also passed on.  He has suggested, which I have done, put a listing on the 'medal tracker' site ... one never knows, I may get to see them some day.
Thanks Bonnie

[km1971]

Hi Bonnie

I would put a question on the British Medal Forum. They have members from North America and someone should know how these collections were sold off after the deaths.

I got the information from his entry in a MSM book written in 1995 which is dedicated to GS Moss. If you PM me with an email address I will send you the listing.

The entry also says that he was born in Athlone. But I see from his record that it says Marylebone, and on page two it says that he had his medical in Athlone. The MSM book was written by Ian McInnes, so again someone on the BMF may know if he is alive, and is able to tell you his source.

I found Henry in the 1851 census and also possibly his father and GF (Frederick). The latter being in the 1841 as being born in foreign parts c1782. This fits with an entry in the Waterloo medal roll for another Henry in the Kings German Legion. You may already have this.

Between 1873 and 1881 they had Brigade Depots. The 14th Foot replaced the 25th in the 6th Brigade Depot. But there may have been some overlap. The 14th Foot became the West Yorkshire Regiment.

btw.. they were the KOB until 1887.

Ken

[BonnieDownUnder]

Hi Ken, Thanks again your quick response.  I am not sure how I 'PM' my email address to you - will try and figure it out - and for the suggestion of listing info on the British Medal Forum, will do so later today.

The 1851 census at 61 Wells St., that you found shows his father George John Frederick Burghart and wife Margaret along with Henry's two older siblings.  F. Burghart is his grandfather, Frederick John George Burghart.  Have found from FJGB's naturalization papers, in 1830, that he was born in Alverdissen, Prussia which is now part of modern day Germany and arrived into England in 1806.   FJGB was one of the top Savile Row tailors of his time and became extremely wealthy however he lost the lot in the mid 1840's.

The Henry Burghart in the Kings German Legion entry in Waterloo - we don't know how he fits in.

All data I have shows that my ggf Henry was born in Middlesex, England - we think either at Wells Street or 5 Market Street where his elder sibling was born however as previously mentioned, haven't found a birth registration nor a baptismal record for him.  If his medical was undertaken at Athlone, I am presuming that the 1/25th foot was based there at the time?

You mentioned the 14th Foot became the West Yorkshire Regiment.  When Henry was at the Workhouse in Marylebone, (C1861) also there was a Thomas West.  It seems Thomas was also conscripted into the Army about the same time as Henry as he is with the 1/25th at Fort Rowner when the C1871 was taken. When Henry married in 1876 at Fulford, York, Thomas was one of the witnesses at his nuptials.  I don't know what happened to Mr West as he isn't on the C1881 at York at the New Infantry Barracks nor did he join the KOSB.  Have a thought that the army box may of been his?

Thanks again Ken and will try and sort how to do the PM ... Bonnie

[BonnieDownUnder]

Hello Ken .... Well I think    I have sent a PM to you correctly.  Also registered on the British Medals Forum and await their confirmation.  Thanks Bonnie

[alasdair_13]

I've been away from this here a while but recently had time to do a little more digging and have uncovered some more facts and dates.

Marion Darroch did indeed marry John Connor, a private in the 25th foot in Glasgow in 1868. From various sources I've pieced together their movements. Seems they went to possibly Aldershot where they had a son, John, in 1869 then went to India. Soon after, my ancestor, Mary was born in 1871, followed by Thomas (1873 in Naini Tal) and William (1877 in Fyzabad).

John Connor dies 3 September 1877 in Fyzebad - possibly as a result of a cholera epidemic that was sweeping the area then.

Marion clearly stays in Indoa and takes up with Thomas Septimus Woodman, also  private in 25th foot, and she marries him 11/10/1878 in Fyzebad. They are in the 1881 census at the military barracks in York (with her children by John Connor, all called Woodman).

They later appear on the Scottish census of 1891 in Kinning Park, Glasgow where Thomas has clearly retired from the army and they have other children.

Still not sure of there is anything more on John Connor's life or history to be gleaned or iof that is about the limits of possible knowledge.

Hi Alasdair

It was the 1st Battalion that was in Glasgow in 1868, having returned from Canada the previous year. They moved around the British Isles until Oct 1875 when they moved to India. The 2nd Battalion were in Ceylon/India from 1863 to 1876, so it looks as if he was transferred to the 2nd Bn in time for his daughter’s birth

If he died in service they would have routinely destroyed his record after 20 years. But the best next step would be to see if his service record survives in Kew. If you cannot visit and do not wish to pay a researcher, you will have to wait to see if Findmypast put it online (due ‘by 2011’). How it is filed will depend upon when he was discharged – http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm

Most men were discharged 12 years after enlistment, so were aged between the ages of 30 and 35 depending upon when they enlisted.  Service before the age of 18 did not count. His service record will give you an outline of him and his service, but it probably will not give details of his wife and children.

If his record does not survive you can follow his service using the Muster Books (WO12) in Kew, starting with the one for the 1st Bn in 1868 and working backwards until he enlisted; and then working forwards from the 2nd Bn muster for 1870-71 until he dies or is discharged. You may be lucky as they started to include details of the marriage roll – wife’s forename and ages of any children – in the musters from around this period. His first entry may give his parish of birth, and/or where he enlisted and maybe his age.

Ken

[rohanryan]

Maggie,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGVW-DS3

I think this is the record you are searching for.

Rohan

[rohanryan]

My gt gt grandfather John Ryan was a Corporal in the 25th till Feb 1855. After this he was recruited by the 74th. Where can I find information on the movements of the 25th?

Prior to the 25th, he was in the 56th Regiment.