C P O William Samuel Semmens b 1862

[pjaj]

I am trying to trace the naval career of William Samuel Semmens.
He was born on 3rd January 1862 in Southwark, Surrey. His parents were William Semmens and Maria although there is some question about this and tracing them is also of considerable interest.

He enlisted in the navy at Portsmouth aged 13 rising to the rank of CPO.

He was on board HMS Andromeda at the relief of Port Arthur and also on the Royal Oak. He may also have been in charge of a mine sweeper.

On leaving the navy he lived with his wife Mary Jane Semmens (a possible cousin) and their 3 children in Portsmouth where he is believed to have worked (as a foreman?) in the dockyard.

The above information is based on two completely independent sets of family recollections.

My main problem is that he does not show up in any of the on-line resources. I can't find him in the National Archives nor on any of the Navy Lists I've found to date.

Can anyone please suggest other sources of information?

[casalguidi]

1901

154 Guildford Road, Portsmouth

William S SIMMENS head mar 35 naval seaman b.London
Mary J wife 35 b.Goldhanger Essex
Maud E dau 5 b.Portsmouth
Gladys M dau 3 b.Portsmouth

RG13/985 folio 74 page 4

There is a William SEMMENS 1865 in the online index of the Royal Navy service records http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/royal-navy-service.asp 

How sure are you that he was born 1862 in Southwark and do you have his marriage certificate to confirm father's name & occupation etc.?

Casalguidi

[km1971]

Hi

You seem pretty certain about his DoB but less so about his parents. His birth is on FreeBMD as plain William in the March (qtr) of 1862. If you haven't already got his BC I suggest you buy it to confirm his parents.

Samuel must have been added at his baptism.

Ken

[pjaj]

Thank you both for your quick replies.

Part of the problem is that the surname is variously recorded as Simmens, Simmons, Simmonds, and other variations.
I've looked on the site casalguidi suggested using these variations, but no obvious candidate stands out.
His age (35) in the 1901 census record would suggest that his DoB was 1866 rather than 1862, but maybe this got confused with his wife's Dob 04 Nov 1865 or it's a miss-transcription of 38 or even 39? I don't have a copy of the image, so I'll take a look.

The information has been gleaned from various on-line sources and other researchers, but we are all stuck at finding his navy records.

I'll order my own copies of his birth and marriage certs.

[casalguidi]

Hi Pjaj

Unless you are absolutely certain of his birth (what documents do you have giving his birthdate and place?), personally speaking I would hold fire on ordering that birth certificate and wait to see what turns up via the marriage certificate.

The 1901 census image definitely says age 35 though, as we all know, this is not always correct.  The William SEMMENS in the Royal Navy service records 1865 would fit wouldn't it for somebody age 35 at the time of the 1901 census?  Unfortunately we can't see anything further without paying for the image so it's difficult to decide/advise whether or not it is him - it could be but it may not be.  If he was definitely in the Royal Navy (as opposed to the Merchant Navy) then he should be in that online index - could it be that he enlisted/served under an alias if you don't think he is William SEMMENS 1865?

Casalguidi

[pjaj]

I think I've got him. I've ordered and downloaded the naval record casalguidi found and it fits - sort of.

"Semmens, William, 116984, 1865" PIC No 396791

DoB 3rd Jan 1866 right day, right month, wrong year, but, as you say, it fits with age 35 in 1901 census.
Birth place Strood, Kent - NOT Southwark, Surrey
The earliest entry is 23rd Dec 1881, just before his 16th birthday (not 13th)
He wasn't demobilised till 9th July 1919, so no civilian dockyard employment before then, my late grandmother (his wife's niece) thought he had left the navy by the early 1900s)
He made CPO in April 1899 - check
On board HMS Andromeda 1/3/04 to 16/7/06 - coincides with Russo-Japanese war and relief of Port Arthur.

No mention of Royal Oak, but was on Royal Arthur

He served on several other ships including Excellent, Resolution, Wallaroo (?!!), Duke of Wellington, Fire Queen (Special service vessel, onetime tender to DoW) etc.

"Joined Royal Fleet Reserve Portsmouth 25 May 09"
Thereafter he was on Victory 1 (Nelson's ship, still afloat till 1914 used as a barracks)  Halcyon, Cyclops, MFA Barca(?)(Lock Royal), back to Victory 1 and finally Vernon.

RFR - does that mean he was mostly shore based? At least in peace time and could have been in charge of part of dock yard.

From the 3rd Jan  to 30th June1893 he was on Excellent and from 1st July to 18th November 1893 he was on Vernon (isn't this a shore base?) I have him getting married in the middle of this period, June 1893.

There  doesn't seem to be an entry for him for 1Q86 in FreeBMD

[casalguidi]

I think that must be him too - the precise spelling of surname, date of birth (forgetting year for the moment) and serving on HMS Andromeda at the correct time would all be too much of a coincidence surely

RFR - does that mean he was mostly shore based? At least in peace time and could have been in charge of part of dock yard

Yes, my understanding is that transferring to Royal Fleet Reserve would be agreeing to be called upon in times of need hence retired in 1909, and recalled (for WW1 perhaps?).

Looking around at some of your other posts, I assume that you (or somebody else) originally thought William to be part of this family ..............

1861

39 Great Union Street, St George Southwark, Surrey

Samuel SEMMENS head mar 33 fire escape conductor b.Little Totham Essex
Marian wife 31 b.Little Totham Essex
James son 7? b.City of London
Ann dau 2 b.City of London

RG9/332 folio 37 page 26

and, possibly:

1871

34 Wellington Place, West Ham

Samuel SIMMONS head mar 45 carman b.(not known) Essex
Sarah wife 34 b.(not known) Surrey
Ann dau 12 b.Southwark St George
William son 9 b.Southwark St George
John WOOD visitor wid 61 painter b.(City) London Middlesex

RG10/1628 folio 79 page 97

Can we ask why William is/was thought to be part of this family .................... it's just a concern that his birth date and age differs from the Royal Navy service record

I couldn't see any William or William Samuel SEMMENS (or variants) that looked conclusive in the 1861-1891 census nor in the baptism registers for Strood around 1866 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bl/ 

Casalguidi

[pjaj]

I'm looking into the probable miss-identification of William in the census records. However the probable reasons were that the family was a very good fit with other known facts. I'm contacting other researchers in this topic.

1) Both parents came from Little Totham in Essex, the area where all the other Semmens families lived (Goldhanger, Gt Totham, etc.)

2) They lived in Southwark, again where many of the families from this part of Essex ended up when they moved to London. in the 1850-70s.

3) William's age, strange we have two different DoB on the same day 4 years apart. I think there has been some further confusion here.