Living with different women on a single Census

[Fue]

Hi

Has anyone out there come across examples of a man being recorded in a census at two different addresses, with different wives? 

In this instance I am thinking that my GGrandfather was shown twice on the 1881 Census, living with different women.   After years of research,  I (and at least 2 others, also a professional researcher)  have never been able to find a marriage certificate for these ggrandparents   so  I am guessing that he was married to one woman and also had another family, without marriage, to  a younger woman -my ggrandmother. 

What are the chances that this happened or am I clutching at straws?     

Hopefully someone can offer advice.

[Gadget]

Hi

First of all, are you sure it is the same man?

Maybe you could give us some info (names, locations, birthdates,etc. ) so that we could do some searching as well 


Regards


Gadget

[Fue]

Hi Gadget

Thanks that would be great:

For years the only definate information  we had was the 1881 Welsh Census found by using his wife’s name - Norah Williams  (yes, sorry he is another William Williams –please don’t throw your hands up and run away in horror, I am determined to find my GGrandfather).


Details of 1881 Wales Census are as follows:-

Civil Parish Rumney                                                             
address : Greenway Fach     
                       Born
William Williams  Head      56 (61?)  Market Gardener            Worcester
 Norah    "           Wife       46 (32)   Gardeners Wife            Devon, Torrington
 John Ford           Stepson  12           Scholar                                   "      "
      Harry F            Son       8              "                              Glamorgan Cardiff
      David F            Son       6              "                                      "         "
      Eliz  F              Dau       4               "                             Monmouth Rumney
      Frances F         Dau       2                                                   "       "
      Norah  F           Dau       3 months                                        "       "
                      ---------------------------------------------
Later additions to the family:

     George F         Son     dob 20.02.1884     Rumney  (my grandfather)
     William  ---      Son     dob 17.10.1885      Rumney

                                                         * * * * * * * * *
Age of William Williams (WW) is suspect as I have his death certificate in 1894 at age 74 which makes his dob to be around 1820.

Norah’s birth cert shows dob 13.12.1848 so her age on Census is wrong
(The possibly more accurate ages in brackets)

(Norah’s first husband -  John Ford were  shown married, on the  1771 Census in Torrington, Devon, so I assume they moved to  S. Wales shortly after.)

We know this is definitely the right  WW because all his children except the last  were given the middle name ‘Ford.’ Also family history told that Norah’s previous husband – John Ford, was WW’s best friend and was killed on the railways -  the latter information being verified by John Ford’s death certificate in June 1872.

1. We have never been able to find the marriage certificate for WW and Norah.

 2.We have not been able to establish WW on any census prior to this date – or after.

3. Many hours research at Worcester has not definitely established the birth date/place.

4. WW is shown on some of his childrens  birth certificates as 'William Charles Williams'. His profession changed from Watchman (1873)  Labourer (1875) Gardener (1876-9) Market gardener (1881-85)


If you are still with me, thank you and please read on ….


The link to a WW that I think is the same man is the 1871 Welsh Census showing a WW born 1815 Whitchurch, married to an Ann,  living on Augustus Street, St Mary, Cardiff a Labourer.

I researched this man further:  1841, 51,61,71,Censuses; Some  show his occupation in earlier years  was Gardener.

Now Norah and WW’s first child was born in August 1873, at 5 Augustus Street, so WW would have been around 58years old.

This WW is also shown in the 1881 census still living with wife Ann about 3 miles away (but both places very close to the railway so easy access).

The important questions are: 

1.Was it possible for a man to start another family  in his late fifties?
I know birth dates on Censuses were often ‘adjusted’ if the wife was a lot younger and Norah’s were wrong in this case.

2.Could he have been with his original wife and have a second family?

3.Am I putting too much emphasis on the Whitchurch WW being a gardener? Much has been said in the family of being ‘many generation of gardeners.’

4. Did WW come from Wales or Worcester?

Sorry its a bit long winded - lots of info.
I am grateful for any help offered.
Thanks
Sue

[Gadget]

Hi Sue

I'm trying to untangle your problems.

First, the ages that you have from the 1881 for William and Norah are wrong. I've examined the image closely (RG11/5289 Folio 132 Page 13 ) and William is given as 50 and Norah 40 (the 6s and 0s on the page are quite distinct). However, that is quite minor.

I'm having trouble finding William and Ann on the 1881 - could you give a reference or more details (ages, place of birth, children's names, etc) as William and Ann Williams are not that rare! Also the census refs for the earlier censuses would be helpful.

Have you got the families on the 1891?

Also, what was Norah's maiden name?

I'm not convinced that William was a bigamist yet.

Regards


Gadget

[Fue]

Hi Gadget

Sorry its not too clear, I have accumulated so much info., its difficult  deciding  what to include an what not to.

As to William and Ann:
1841 Welsh Census Ref HO107/1418 Book 2 page 13
1851 Welsh Census Ref: HO107/2455  Folio 592 page 45 (there are 2 Williams mine? was born Whitchurch)
1861     "         "               RG9/4038  Folio 47 Page 44
1871    "          "                RG10/5362 Folio 60 Page 36
1881     "         "                RG11/5285 Folio 90 page 18

I cannot find this couple on the 1891 Census
         ------------

William and Norah are also missing from the 1891 Census, but the eldest Son and some siblings are shown at the same address (Greenway) see RG12/4403 Folio 133 page 6

Norah's maiden name was Hearn (written Hern on some of her childrens birth cert s)
Just a little extra info for you. William died Nov1894 and Norah was married I understand, to an Edward Tugwell 2nd Qtr 1895.

Hope this helps a bit to untangle things.

Many thanks
Sue

[Gadget]

So we have :

1881

24 Iron Street, Roath, Glamorgan

William Williams, 66, labourer, b. Glamorgan, Whitchurch (b. 1815)
Ann, 60, b. Llancarvan, Glamorgan

and

Greenway fach, Rumney

William Williams, 50, market gardener, b. Worcester (b. 1825 - 1831)
Norah, 40, gardener's wife, b. Torrington

I just can't see that there is much to link these two entries at all except for the name of William Williams (a very common name!) and that,  so far, you've not found the Worcester one in previous censuses.

In the 1871 census that you refer to, William and Ann are living at 36 Augustus Street. William is aged 57, a labourer and b. Whitchurch.

In 1861, William is 46, a general labourer and b. Whitchurch.

In1851, William is 36, a gardener and b. Whitchurch

In 1841 William is 25-29, a gardener and b. county

The ages in the censuses for this William seem to be pretty consistent - b. c. 1815 and a gardener who became a general labourer after 1851 and always born Whitchurch, Glamorgan

I think that I would be doing more searches for the William b. Worcester before I reached any firm conclusions.

Regards


Gadget

[Fue]

If you go by Census, it does not look good does it?

Its the  info inbetween that possibly makes it a possibilty - if you know what I mean?

1. William and Ann lived on Augustus Street 1871
    William and Norah's first born, address, Augustus Street 1872

2. Information on Norah's Birth and William's death certificate indicate they did not give correct ages   on the 1881 Census Greenway Fach  so William was much older and Norah younger than stated.

3. No Marriage certificate can be found for William and Norah.

I know it was a  long shot; William would have had to be quite a colourful - energetic type of chap to have pulled off this little story!

Thanks Gadget for your time and advice...back to the searching 

Sue

[Gadget]

If you go by Census, it does not look good does it?

Its the  info inbetween that possibly makes it a possibilty - if you know what I mean?

1. William and Ann lived on Augustus Street 1871
    William and Norah's first born, address, Augustus Street 1872



Sue

Let's just take this one:

William and Ann lived at 36 Augustus Street. The child was born at No. 5. I'd like to see the layout of the street and check who was living at number 5 in 1871.


Gadget

[Gadget]

5 Augustus Street seems to be a multi-occupied house in the 1871:

5 Augustus Street
RG10/5362 Folio 57 Page 30

Frederic Hodges, 30, Ship smith, b. Dorset Cerne Abbey
and wife and child

And

William Thomas, 37, Railway Engine Driver, b. Glamorgan, Eglwyslan (?)
and wife

Number 5 is on page 30 and number 36 is on page 36 - quite a few houses away. Unfortunately it doesn't say anything about the house numbering on the ED description - odd one side, even the other or consecutive