Author Topic: Whitaugh Armstrongs  (Read 22651 times)

Offline Rewcastle

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 28 June 11 15:19 BST (UK) »
I should have pointed out that the deed i'm looking at is this one:- http://www.welters-worldwide.com/Whithaugh/Images/1667%203.jpg

On line 6... till when, Lancelot Armstrong, the said [aforementioned] Francis Armstrong [? word] [? word] our family of Buccleuch.
The missing words look like 'opus nopoo', 'napoo' or nepoo, from what i'm finding with translations 'nepo' means nephew or grandson, various ending on the end of 'nepo' have the meaning of grandson, child's son.  ???

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Offline Mosside

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 29 June 11 06:35 BST (UK) »
This is certainly a challenging document. It certainly appears to make reference to the earlier document of 1586 when Francis Earl of Bothwell granted a charter to (old) Lancelot Armstrong. One might expect that this was acknowledging Francis Armstrong of Whythaugh as a descendant. It would be helpful to have a higher resolution copy to read, as some words must be impossible to read, even if you understand Latin.
Armstrongs of Canonbie & Debatable Land, Eskdale, Ewesdale, Liddesdale, Annandale, Cumberland

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Offline Rewcastle

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 29 June 11 15:16 BST (UK) »
This is my translation from the last words of the 3rd line to about a third of the 5th line.



mentioned                  -  mentioned

dicti                      -  to say, speak, utter, tell, mention, relate, affirm, declare, state, assert

quous                      -  if any, It could also be short for the word 'quousque',:- until what time, till when, how long; or (quo usque) [how long? how far?].

Lancelot Armstrong         -  Lancelot Armstrong

durank?

sua                        -  his, their, their own, his own, it's.

bita?                      -

possess                    -  possess

fuerunt                    -  were, have been, they were, there were, been.

per                        -  before, aforesaid,

prefatum                   -  the said

Francis Armstrong          -  Francis Armstrong

erus? looks like opus?     -  Master of a House, Proprietor, Master of a Family, Owner, Lord (Laird?), Sweetheart, God.

nepotem                    -  grandson, the grandson of, nephew, the nephew of

semper                     -  always, eternally, ever, perpetually, fore ever,

ab                         -  from the, by the.

erus? looks like opus?     -  Master of a House, Proprietor, Master of a Family, Owner, Lord (Laird?), Sweetheart, God.

decessu                    -  departure, decease of, decease,

tanquam                    -  as much as, so as, just as, like as, as if, so to speak

hereditary properties      -  hereditary properties

earundem?                  -  the same, same, their, of their.

possess                    -  possess

sunt?                      -  to be, exist, live

sicuti                     -  as, as he, as it, just as.

etiam                      -  also, is also, also the.

pre                        -  aforesaid

?????

dicti                      -  to say, speak, utter, tell, mention, relate, affirm, declare, state, assert

quous                      -  if any, It could also be short for the word 'quousque', :- until what time, till when, how long; or (quo usque) [how long? how far?].

Lancloti                   -  Lancelot

hereditary property        -  hereditary property

et                         -  and, and his,

possessors                 -  possessors

dictarum                   -  of the said, said, aforesaid, the aforesaid.

terrarum                   -  of the lands.

Offline Mosside

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 30 June 11 20:56 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Rewcastle.
That's very impressive!
It would be great to find the direct connection between Lancelot A. of the 1586 charter and Francis Armstrong of the 1667 charter. The earlier charter clearly reaffirmed granting to Lancelot, the old Laird of Whithaugh, the lands and possessions of Whithaugh (since an earlier charter had been destroyed by and English raid) and made this hereditable.
Armstrongs of Canonbie & Debatable Land, Eskdale, Ewesdale, Liddesdale, Annandale, Cumberland

Offline Rewcastle

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #31 on: Friday 01 July 11 15:09 BST (UK) »
I think i have it worked out.

Francis Armstrong the grandson mentioned in the 1667 deeds/charter, was the grandson of Lancelot Armstrong, b.abt. 1580. He would have been the great great-grandson of Lancelot Armstrong the Auld Laird of the 1586 deeds/charter.

I stripped the tree back to the bear branches and everything is mentioned in the deeds/charters and other bits that i've found. I will put them all together to post them later tonight. I've just got to do some more cross referencing.

Also there is a deed/charter missing form the collection, dated the 19th September 1770.

Offline Rewcastle

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 27 August 11 18:24 BST (UK) »
I recently bought a book 'The Outlaws of the Marches', First edition, 1897, by Lord Ernest Hamilton. The book has a fair bit about the Armstrong's of Whithaugh in it.
It's an interesting book about Gavin Elliot recounting his days from the years 1587-88. There is no preface in the book and i was unsure whether it is based on fact or fiction.

Chapter 2 is titled 'Some of the Armstrong's of Whithaugh'. Most of the Armstrong's named in it, are well noted, apart from one or two of the characters who i've not come across before.

Chapter 3 is titled 'How i rode with the Armstrong's'.  It's based on how he went on a raid with The Armstrong's to the town of Temmon on the 11th November 1587 and met Joan who he fell in love with.

I thought perhaps that this part was fiction, however, i've found a record of a raid by The Armstrong's of Mangerton, Whithaugh, and Co., to Temmon on Martinmas (11th November) 1587.

In the last chapter, when he is referring to the Armstrongs of Whithaugh, he states:- "Archie was killed in '98 during the raid on Haltwhistle; Sym was hanged side by side with his son Lancie on the Harribee at Carlisle in 1603; and Francis and Chris went with Buccleuch to the Netherlands, and died there fighting the Spanish, like the gallant villains they were."

Has anyone else come across the reference of Sym and his son Lancie being hanged at Carlisle in 1603. ? As this would suggest that there is a missing generation and that Lance who was in possession of  Whithaugh in 1632-38, may have been the son of Lancie and grandson of Sym.

Offline Mosside

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 28 August 11 08:45 BST (UK) »
Sounds intriguing.
Laird Simon (Sym) of Whithaugh was executed in 1607 along with his brother Andrew, after being captured that year.
His son Lance (of Flat) was not apparently mentioned in the related MSS:

Cecil Papers Volume 19: pp. 397-521:
 "Prisoners Taken by Lord Dunbar":
"Of Scottishmen: John Armstrong of Mangertoun; Syme Armstrong of Quhitehanche; Andrew Armstrong his brother;" Endorsed: "1607."

Muncaster MSS p. 270 Feb 23, 1606[-7]. Berwick. The Earl of Dunbar to the Bishop of Carlisle and Sir W. Lawson:
"Man purposeth and God determyneth."  Hopes to be well enough to meet them on the 18th of March. Mangerton, Whithaugh, William Ellott, Andrew Armstrong, and Martin Ellot, are executed for very odious and criminal causes, and fourteen others for stealths and other punishable causes."

It seems quite likely that Lancelot you mention is the missing link - thanks to a cross-border foray for a bride having been recorded:

Bishop's transcripts of Arthuret Vol. 1 Arthuret Parish Register PR 18/19:
October 1625  Lancelot Armestrong of Whittagh in [the] Parish of Castleton in the Kingdome of Scotland
and Jhaine Grame [P]lump of the Parish of Arthuret married.
(transcription thanks to Margaret Marrs, 1998. Ewart Library, Dumfries)

It would be helpful to confirm who this Lancelot's father was. As you say, the most likely candidate would be Lancy of Flat ("the young laird" of Whithaugh mentioned in various raids), who was the son of Sym.
Armstrongs of Canonbie & Debatable Land, Eskdale, Ewesdale, Liddesdale, Annandale, Cumberland

Offline Mosside

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #34 on: Monday 29 August 11 18:04 BST (UK) »
Further to the above, I am convinced that the missing link is indeed 'Lancy of Flat', who succeeded his father, Lancelot son of Symon (hanged in 1607), and was the father of Francis mentioned in the 1667 Charter.

The term "young laird' was used to identify successor, usually eldest son, and "younger of" when the father had the same forename.

MS State Papers Domestic James Vol 63, no 99  May 28, 1611: complaint of Earl of Cumberland to Salisbury. Murder of an Englishman (Lionel Robson of Leaplish, 6 miles from the Scottish border) by 70 armed Scotts, Elliotts, Armstrongs, and others on May 26. There is a list of the slain, wounded, and various offenders referenced, including:  "Lancelot Armestrong of Whithaugh called the young Larde, Alexander of the Roane his brother, Francis of Whithaugh and his son Lancelot".

Since we know that Laird Symon was dead by then, this "Lancelot Armestrong of Whithaugh called the young Larde" would have to be the son of Lancelot, Symon's eldest son then Laird.

For some time he lived at nearby Flat -
RPC Scots 9(707-8) Jedburgh October 28 1611:
"The following cautioners for the entry of the persons named were "unlawit" in the sums specfied on account of their not compearing:
Lancie of Flat, younger of Quhithauch,
Francie of Westburnflat,
and Johnne A, his brother, conjunctly and severally,
for Lancie A  and Symon A, sons to the said Francie"



Armstrongs of Canonbie & Debatable Land, Eskdale, Ewesdale, Liddesdale, Annandale, Cumberland

Offline Rewcastle

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Re: Whitaugh Armstrongs
« Reply #35 on: Thursday 09 February 12 13:18 GMT (UK) »
A few more names from  this 1667 deed

It's from the last few lines before the last paragraph with the signatures. The letter that looks like a capital 'G' is a capital' S', the letter that looks like straight line bent over at the top to the right is a small 's'.

Same place John ? ? ? in Flat. Symone Armstronge in Cassiltoune and Williamo Scott in Parke and Williamo Croser in Maynes and John Armstronge in Whitau[gh?] with diborsis? allye?